Prov 30:3

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Expand view Topic review: Prov 30:3

Re: Prov 30:3

Post by Jemoh66 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:50 pm

For the record the LXX actually reads closer to my translation

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the counsel of saints is understanding:

The Targum reads word for word like Hebrew,

שֵׁירוּי דְחָכְמְתָא דְחַלְתֵּיהּ דֶאֱלָהָא וִידִיעֲתָא דְקַדִישֵׁי בְיוּנָא:

The reference is either holy men, or perhaps the holy ones in the heavenly council.

Re: Prov 30:3

Post by S_Walch » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:25 am

SteveMiller wrote:Thanks Ste. What did you mean by "transposes Prov 30:3 to Prov 24:26"?

Proverbs LXX/OG doesn't actually have a Chapter 30 or 31, but in fact has the words of chapter 30/31 in other chapters:

Proverbs 30:1-14 = Proverbs 24:24-37 LXX/OG
Proverbs 30:15-33 = Proverbs 24:50-68 LXX/OG
Proverbs 31:1-9 = Proverbs 24:69-77 LXX/OG
Proverbs 31:10-31 = Proverbs 29:28-49 LXX/OG

And even then, it's not like the verses line up in exactly the same order.

Likely seeing a different form of Proverbs in the LXX/OG

SteveMiller wrote:It would also require that LXX saw ‎לָמַ֥דְי in place of ‎ לָמַ֥דְתִּי.
LXX does make more sense, that God taught Agur wisdom, because v10 - end of the chapter are wisdom, rather than knowledge of the holy.

Indeed.

It all depends on what's more likely: the ו is being used differently to how it is normally in Proverbs 30:3, or there is a corruption of the text.

I lean more towards the latter than the former.

Re: Prov 30:3

Post by SteveMiller » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:50 pm

S_Walch wrote:As you pointed to the LXX/OG in post #1, here's the Greek (LXX/OG has a different structure, and text, to the Masoretic Hebrew of Proverbs, and so transposes Prov 30:3 to Prov 24:26):

God has taught me wisdom, and I know the knowledge of the Holy One


Thanks Ste. What did you mean by "transposes Prov 30:3 to Prov 24:26"?

S_Walch wrote:Here we could have a classic case of misreading לא for אל (hence θεὸς), or the Masoretic Hebrew has a scribal mistake of לא for אל.

It would also require that LXX saw ‎לָמַ֥דְי in place of ‎ לָמַ֥דְתִּי.
LXX does make more sense, that God taught Agur wisdom, because v10 - end of the chapter are wisdom, rather than knowledge of the holy.

Re: Prov 30:3

Post by S_Walch » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:42 am

SteveMiller wrote:I would translate Prov 30:3 Neither have I learned wisdom, but knowledge of the Holy I know.
Because v 4 through at least v9 indicate a knowledge of the Holy.
Maybe Agur has a mental handicap, like Downs Syndrome, or another handicap so he didn't go to school, but he knows God's ways.

As you pointed to the LXX/OG in post #1, here's the Greek (LXX/OG has a different structure, and text, to the Masoretic Hebrew of Proverbs, and so transposes Prov 30:3 to Prov 24:26):

θεὸς δεδίδαχέν με σοφίαν, καὶ γνῶσιν ἁγίων ἔγνωκα.

God has taught me wisdom, and I know the knowledge of the Holy One

Here we could have a classic case of misreading לא for אל (hence θεὸς), or the Masoretic Hebrew has a scribal mistake of לא for אל.

I also agree with your interpretation of the verses (which certainly seems to be the one shared by the LXX/OG), and add the following: Agur knows God's ways as opposed to knowing the ways of humans, to which he is contrasting:

The words of Agur son of Jakeh. The oracle.

The man declares, I am weary, O God;
I am weary, O God, and worn out.
Surely I am too stupid than a human.
as I do not have the understanding of humankind,
since God has taught me wisdom,
and I know the knowledge of the Holy One.

Who has ascended to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered the wind in his fists?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is his son’s name?
Surely you know!

Every word of God proves true;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Do not add to his words,
lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

Re: Prov 30:3

Post by Isaac Fried » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:49 pm

וְלֹֽא לָמַ֥דְתִּי חָכְמָ֑ה וְדַ֖עַת קְדֹשִׁ֣ים אֵדָֽע
"I have not learned wisdom, nor do I know the teachings of the rabbis.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: Prov 30:3

Post by Mark Lightman » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:06 pm

SteveMiller wrote:Mark, is there an English translation of the Graecus Venetus?

No, Steve, I don't think so.

Re: Prov 30:3

Post by SteveMiller » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:07 pm

Thanks Kirk, Mark, Karl and Jonathan,

Mark, is there an English translation of the Graecus Venetus?

I did a search of all occurrences of "nor" in KJV in the Tanach.
There were 499 verses, so I just looked at the poetic books: Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Lamentations.
These were about 50 verses. In all these cases the negative particle never applied to 2 verbs except for maybe the verse under discussion.
I also searched the above 499 verses for any containing an imperative verb, thinking there might be an example of one negative particle applying to 2 imperative verbs.
There I found 2 verses with one negative particle modifying 2 verbs (but not the imperative verb).
Isa 23:4 ... and I have not raised choice men, brought up virgins.
‎ וְלֹ֥א גִדַּ֛לְתִּי בַּחוּרִ֖ים רוֹמַ֥מְתִּי בְתוּלֽוֹת׃
Here there is no "and". It seems the 2 verbal phrases are in apposition. They are one thing.

Jer 22:10 ... For he shall return no more, nor see his native land.
‎ כִּ֣י לֹ֤א יָשׁוּב֙ ע֔וֹד וְרָאָ֖ה אֶת־אֶ֥רֶץ מוֹלַדְתּֽוֹ׃
This could to be a case like Karl's:
For he shall return no more that he may see his native land.
Since both verbs have the same subject, it could be translated:
For he shall not return and see his native land.
Which has the same meaning as "that he may see ... ".

Karl,
As far as I know, a waw prefixed to a noun does not carry the meaning of "that" or "so that".
Looking for "that" in Proverbs, I find only:
Prov 8:29 "when he imposed on the sea his decree that the waters should not pass his commandment, when he appointed the foundations of the earth: (DBY)
‎ בְּשׂ֨וּמ֤וֹ לַיָּ֙ם׀ חֻקּ֗וֹ וּ֭מַיִם לֹ֣א יַֽעַבְרוּ־פִ֑יו בְּ֜חוּק֗וֹ מ֣וֹסְדֵי אָֽרֶץ׃
It could just as well be translated without the "that": When He set for the sea its limit and the waters would not transgress His word ..." (Stone Tanach)

Jonathan,
the same phrase ‎ וְדַ֖עַת קְדֹשִׁ֣ים is in Prov 9:10, where I don't think it could mean "what the holy ones know".

I would translate Prov 30:3 Neither have I learned wisdom, but knowledge of the Holy I know.
Because v 4 through at least v9 indicate a knowledge of the Holy.
Maybe Agur has a mental handicap, like Downs Syndrome, or another handicap so he didn't go to school, but he knows God's ways.

Re: Prov 30:3

Post by Jemoh66 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:43 am

I like that Karl. I would also add that I think the second phrase, וְדַ֖עַת קְדֹשִׁ֣ים אֵדָֽע, is referring to holy beings, that is what holy beings know.

I haven't learned wisdom that I should know what the holy ones know.

Re: Prov 30:3

Post by kwrandolph » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:12 am

Steve, there’s a fourth option, namely that the waw should be translated with a “that”. This is not common, but is found, most famously in Isaiah 53:2 “…he doesn’t have the looks that we should desire specifically him.” So we get in Proverbs 30:3 “I didn’t learn wisdom that I should know the knowledge of holy things.”

Karl W. Randolph.

Re: Prov 30:3

Post by Mark Lightman » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:18 am

Kirk Lowery wrote:All of the "standard" translations take ‎לֹֽא as applying to both halves of the verse.

Cf. the Graecus Venetus: οὔτε ἔμαθον σοφίαν, καὶ γνῶσιν ἁγίων εἴσομαι.

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