קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

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Expand view Topic review: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Post by Jason Hare » Sun May 19, 2019 6:17 am

I prefer to use language in communication with comprehensible input (see Stephen Krashen). Grammar explanations are only used to fill in blanks. Seeing that you don't see what goes on in our sessions but only fill-in-the-blank materials that I add for explanation after-the-fact, I don't think that calling up things from my forum is entirely relevant to this discussion.

I will certainly not be telling them that אכלו is אכל-הוא when הוא has nothing to do with it.

Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Post by Isaac Fried » Sat May 18, 2019 8:57 pm

Jason,

I looked up your site "the Hebrew cafe",
http://thehebrewcafe.com/
and in particular the section where you present to the novice student of Hebrew the conjugation of the verb אָכַל, starting with אָכַלְתָּ, 'you m. sg. ate'.
It seems to me that it would be pedagogically advantageous to extend and enhance the presentation by pointing out to the eager student that אָכַלְתָּ is apparently but the fusion of אכל-אתה. Logic and meaning will make things, I believe, stick better in his mind.
Then you will point out to him that
אָכַלְתְּ = אכל-את, 'you f. sg. ate'
אָכַלְנוּ = אכל-אנוּ, 'we ate'
אֲכַלְתֶּם = אכל-אתם, 'you m. pl. ate'
אֲכַלְתֶּן = אכל-אתן, 'you f. pl. ate'

The student will surely like it, but then he will be puzzled about
אָכַלְתִּי = אכל-אתי, 'I ate', why it is not אכלני = אכל-אני, he will want to know. You will explain this to him, to his great perspicacious delight. Then he will want to know why it is אָכְלוּ = אכל-הוּא, 'they ate', and not אכלם = אכל-הם. You will graciously tell them that אֲכָלָם is, 'he ate them'. Namely, it is all but the question of who did what to whom.

They will love you for this, and will surely come back for more.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Post by Schubert » Sat May 18, 2019 7:01 pm

I agree with Dewayne and Jason. Utilizing subfora would be very helpful. It would make it simpler for those who want to focus on just one or two aspects of Biblical Hebrew, or conversely to ignore certain aspects.

One possible issue is the way in which folks subscribe to different parts of B-Hebrew. So that I don't miss anything of interest, I currently have a subscription to each of the separate fora within B-Hebrew. It would be good if, in the new system, it was not possible to start a thread in the parent part of what is now the "General Discussion" forum. This way, there would be no need to have a subscription to the parent General Discussion forum, which which would then include all subfora – whether a person was interested in a particular subforum or not. This might mean having an appropriately labeled general subforum within what is now "General Discussion". I hope this makes at least some sense.

And finally, thank you Kirk for the time you devote to running B-Hebrew.

Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Post by Jason Hare » Sat May 18, 2019 8:24 am

R.J. Furuli wrote:Will a discussion of "prophetic perfect" help us better understand the Classical Hebrew as a real language? What is your opinion regarding "prophetic perfect?


I imagine that a discussion of any feature of biblical Hebrew that can be exhibited in the text should be useful.

The book of Amos was written before the fall of Israel, we can assume (I believe), yet it uses perfect forms to describe Israel's fall:

Amos 5:2
נָֽפְלָה֙ לֹֽא־תוֹסִ֣יף ק֔וּם בְּתוּלַ֖ת יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל נִטְּשָׁ֥ה עַל־אַדְמָתָ֖הּ אֵ֥ין מְקִימָֽהּ׃

The prophetic perfect (perfectum propheticum) was mentioned by Waltke & O'Connor, Gesenius, David Kimḥi (דוד קמחי), and others, so it has support form a wide variety of grammarians and Hebrew commentators.

Why do I get the feeling that this question is a distraction from the point we're engaging, though?

Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Post by R.J. Furuli » Fri May 17, 2019 11:45 am

Jason Hare wrote,


When I check into this forum, I constantly struggle with understanding what we think our purpose is as an online group. I wonder how we can make it a useful space for the promotion of understanding the Hebrew text. Pet theories that fly in the face of linguistic theory and research do not promote a better understanding of the text. We should be looking for best practices, not doing what's going on here right now (and has been happening for a long time). Where are those here who relate to Hebrew as a real language?


Dear Jason,

Will a discussion of "prophetic perfect" help us better understand the Classical Hebrew as a real language? What is your opinion regarding "prophetic perfect?


Best regards,


Rolf J. Furuli
Stavern
Norway

Re: Subforum for teaching & learning Hebrew (pedagogy)?

Post by Jason Hare » Fri May 17, 2019 1:45 am

Kirk Lowery wrote:Would it be helpful to add a subforum to focus on the pedagogy of learning Hebrew as a real language? I know, Jason, that you have established a website/forum for this purpose, but would it help with discussion, do you think?


One real tangible difference is that my own forum is devoted most directly (and intentionally) at modern Hebrew, while this forum focuses on biblical Hebrew. It's certainly worthwhile (in my opinion) to treat the biblical language in the way that Randall Buth has done extensively with Koiné Greek (and, to a lesser extent, with biblical Hebrew). That is, we might use texts pulled from the Bible as examples of regular syntax for the purpose of communicative Hebrew, perhaps employing what is considered antiquated style among speakers of the modern language.

Kirk Lowery wrote:Now that I think about it, we could also add subforums similar to what B-Greek does, e.g., "What does this text mean?", or even one for grammar (morphology, syntax, etc.) questions.


Yes, a clear and resounding yes from me. A subforum where etymology may hold sway would be nice. It would allow a diverse voice of Hebrew origins while allowing the wider forum to relate more directly to issues of acquisition and pedagogy.

Kirk Lowery wrote:This would be, from an administrative point of view, easy to do. But I'd like some member feedback before I go to the trouble.


You're right that this will take feedback from the qahal. What are people wanting to do with the forum? What are some wise steps we can take as an online community to further our objectives? What are our objectives as a group? It is a good idea to reevaluate previous answers to these questions every so often, and it seems that this is as good a time as any to start asking these questions again.

Maybe we should start a thread specifically dedicated to getting feedback and thinking through options.

בברכה
Jason

Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Post by Schubert » Thu May 16, 2019 8:12 pm

Kirk, I've sent you a pm about the issue you raised.

Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Post by talmid56 » Thu May 16, 2019 6:32 pm

Yes, Kirk, I think these types of subforums would be very useful.

Subforum for teaching & learning Hebrew (pedagogy)?

Post by Kirk Lowery » Thu May 16, 2019 5:52 pm

Dewayne Dulaney wrote:Well, I’m one of those who does relate to Hebrew as a real language (and I look forward to contributing to your new Hebrew Café site.). This is why I’m interested in methods for learning ancient languages, including Biblical Hebrew, that use interactive/communicative methods (comprehensible input). The fact that there are some difficulties in our path (uncertainties about ancient pronunciation, questions about how the BH verbal system works—e.g., the tense and aspect debate, etc., etc.) should not deter us from trying


Jason Hare wrote: I wonder how we can make it a useful space for the promotion of understanding the Hebrew text.


Would it be helpful to add a subforum to focus on the pedagogy of learning Hebrew as a real language? I know, Jason, that you have established a website/forum for this purpose, but would it help with discussion, do you think?

Now that I think about it, we could also add subforums similar to what B-Greek does, e.g., "What does this text mean?", or even one for grammar (morphology, syntax, etc.) questions.

This would be, from an administrative point of view, easy to do. But I'd like some member feedback before I go to the trouble.

Blessings,
Kirk

Re: קָדוֹשׁ Leviticus 19:2

Post by Isaac Fried » Thu May 16, 2019 4:50 pm

Talmid,

I fully understand that one may want to ignore arguments not to his taste or benefit, still I a puzzled by the following statements:
"Where are those here who relate to Hebrew as a real language?" Are there those who doubt the reality of Hebrew?
"linguistic theories that have been tried and tested by scholars." Could you please tell us more specifically how this is done, I may profit from it by trying and testing my own theories.
"So I understand on both a practical level and a theoretical level how languages work." This, I admit, is a remarkable achievement. I myself am still struggling with such understandings.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

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