The letter vav

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Expand view Topic review: The letter vav

Re: The letter vav

Post by kwrandolph » Tue May 22, 2018 10:37 pm

S_Walch wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:No, my question is, how many times is את meaning “with” spelled as אות? So far, I’ve located 39 times in the MT, 25 of which are found in just two books—Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Does not this spelling indicate that the original pronunciation of “with” was ōt or ōte, and not et as in modern pronunciation?

------------------------

In Isaiah I had located one such spelling in 59:12, you mention two occurrences. How many more in the rest of the surviving DSS? What does that spelling indicate about the original pronunciation of “with”?

Karl W. Randolph.

There's 890 of these in the Tanakh ( :shock: ), so this will certainly take a while to get through!

Will let you know once checked.


If it helps, here are the 39 times it is so found in MT:

“With” is written as אות in Lv 17:5, Js 10:25, 14:12, 1K 20:25, 22:7, 24, 2K 1:15, 3:11–2, 3:26, 6:16, 19, 10:6 Is 59:21, Jr 1:16, 4:12, 5:5, 10:5, 16:8, 19:10, 20:11, 35:2, Ez 2:6, 3:22, 27, 6:9, 7:27, 10:22, 16:60, 22:14, 23:8, 23, 25, 29, 33:32, 37:26, 38:9, 43:11, 17 (just those I have found so far). Do these examples indicate that the original pronunciation of את was “ōte” rather than “et” as in modern Hebrew?

Karl W. Randolph.

Re: The letter vav

Post by S_Walch » Tue May 22, 2018 6:16 am

To clarify, it was a comment as to whether ובכל was rightly given the vowel points וּבְכָל by the Masoretes, or whether they got them wrong.

Now for וּבְ, I think they're more showing the Tiberian dialect, but I have no evidence (yet) to give on such.

For כל however, it most definitely should be pointed as כֹל each and every time, no matter what it has prefixed to it, or what follows it in construct.

I defer to the many places of כול in the DSS for that.

Edit:
Plus just in case someone thinks I'm only basing this on the Great Isaiah Scroll; here is a preliminary list from manuscripts containing sections from the Torah that have the full plene spelling of כל as כול (manuscript name + verse where the plene is extant):

1QGen; Genesis 3:14
4QExodc; Exodus 15:20
2QExodb; Exodus 18:22; 34:10
4QLevg; Leviticus 7:21, 23, 24
4QLevd; Leviticus 15:22; 17:11 (addition not seen in MT)
4QNumb; Numbers 11:32 (x3); 16:3, 6, 8; 18:29 (x2), 31; 25:2; 30:1, 9; 31:48, 51; 32:26
2QNumb; Numbers 33:52
4QDeutm; Deuteronomy 3:18; 7:19
4QDeutj; Deuteronomy 5:1, 28, 31; 6:2; 8:6; 21a (21a-n in this mss are actually from Exodus 12:43-13:5)
4QDeutn; Deuteronomy 5:8, 13, 15, 21, 22, 23, 27; 8:9
4QDeutk1; Deuteronomy 11:6, 7, 8
4QDeutk2; Deuteronomy 19:8, 15; 20:15, 18

Re: The letter vav

Post by Isaac Fried » Mon May 21, 2018 7:20 pm

Ste Walch writes: "That assumes that the Masoretic vowel-pointing is correct in such cases." I am puzzled as to what is considered "correct" and what is considered "incorrect" pointing.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: The letter vav

Post by Isaac Fried » Mon May 21, 2018 6:20 pm

I have written the two sentences:
ובכל הבלגן הזה "and in all this confusion"
ובכל זאת נוע תנוע "And yet it moves"
on a piece of paper and have asked some of my friends (all men) to read it aloud. Most have read ובכל as UVEXOL with a soft B=V and a soft כ K, that I marked with an X as for ח, there being no distinction in spoken Hebrew between a soft כ K and a ח.
But some (fewer) have read it as VEBEXOL with an E and a hard B.
It needs to be said that all men in this experiment recite daily the biblical statement (Deut. 6:5)
וְאָהַבְתָּ אֵת יהֹוה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּכָל לְבָבְךָ וּבְכָל נַפְשְׁךָ וּבְכָל מְאֹדֶךָ

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: The letter vav

Post by S_Walch » Mon May 21, 2018 7:46 am

kwrandolph wrote:
SteveMiller wrote:Karl,
I was thinking that you wanted cases where את means "with" and not where it is the direct object marker. If the DSS spells one different than the other, that would help to determine whether the את should mean "with" or be the direct object marker.


No, my question is, how many times is את meaning “with” spelled as אות? So far, I’ve located 39 times in the MT, 25 of which are found in just two books—Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Does not this spelling indicate that the original pronunciation of “with” was ōt or ōte, and not et as in modern pronunciation?

------------------------

In Isaiah I had located one such spelling in 59:12, you mention two occurrences. How many more in the rest of the surviving DSS? What does that spelling indicate about the original pronunciation of “with”?

Karl W. Randolph.

There's 890 of these in the Tanakh ( :shock: ), so this will certainly take a while to get through!

Will let you know once checked.

Re: The letter vav

Post by S_Walch » Mon May 21, 2018 7:11 am

SteveMiller wrote:Thanks very much, Ste.
It looks like the plene spellings are mainly by manuscript.

Certainly.

If we look at the dates for the manuscripts with/probably with ובכול, 2QExodb is around 30-68 CE; 4QSama is around 100-50 BCE; and 1QIsaa is around 250-100 BCE. So even though it does seem the plene spellings are 'by manuscript', there's quite a gap of time between the assigned dates, indicating the plene spelling was used even up to the pre-Jewish revolt of 68 CE.

On the other side for the manuscripts with/probably with ובכל, 4QExodc is around 50-25 BCE; 4QpaleoExodm is around 200-175 BCE; 4QpaleoGen-Exodl is around 100-25 BCE; 4QDeutl is around 50 BCE; and 4QJera is around 250-150 BCE.

It's very interesting that we have no post 1st century BCE with the defective of ובכל, but I would hazard a guess that the defective became the de facto way to spell the word.

Nonetheless, it does seem that the plene and defective forms could exist side-by-side anytime between the 3rd century BCE and the 1st century CE.

You are right about Isa 39:2 in 1QIsaB. I used Logos to view the DSS and it sometimes fills out the missing part of the verse in []'s, and I missed that the last part of that verse was preceded by a "[" with no closing "]".

Exactly why I wouldn't use the Logos DSS database; it doesn't actually show a decent transcription of the DSS manuscripts, especially when it comes to those manuscripts using Paleo-Hebrew YHWH and elohim. Nor the proper gaps between verses etc. I'm not even quite sure calling it a 'transcription' is quite right.

I prefer to consult the actual images in either the DJD series or over at the Leon-Levy Dead Sea Scrolls Digital Library https://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/explore-the-archive

Re: The letter vav

Post by kwrandolph » Mon May 21, 2018 5:30 am

SteveMiller wrote:Karl,
I was thinking that you wanted cases where את means "with" and not where it is the direct object marker. If the DSS spells one different than the other, that would help to determine whether the את should mean "with" or be the direct object marker.


No, my question is, how many times is את meaning “with” spelled as אות? So far, I’ve located 39 times in the MT, 25 of which are found in just two books—Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Does not this spelling indicate that the original pronunciation of “with” was ōt or ōte, and not et as in modern pronunciation?

SteveMiller wrote:I did a search for את (including prefixes and suffixes) in Isa, and Bibleworks returned 203 verses.
I chose just Isa because there is complete DSS for it.
Then I searched the resultant 203 verses above for the English word "with" in Darby's translation and got 55 verses.
In 33 of these 55 verses Darby translated an את as "with".
Here are the verses:
Isa. 14:20 - DSS has אתום. MT has ‎ אִתָּם
19:23
23:17
28:15,18
29:13 - DSS has אותי. MT has ‎ אֹתִ֔י
,14
34:14
36:8,16
37:9
40:10,14
41:4
43:2,5
45:9
49:4,25,26
50:8
53:9,12
57:15
59:12
,21 - DSS 1QIsaA has אתם. MT & DSS 1QIsaB have ‎ אוֹתם
60:9
62:11
63:3,11
65:23
66:10,16

When there is no comment above, both MT and DSS had no vav between the aleph and taf.
I also ran into a lot of את as direct object pointer in DSS, and none of those had a vav between aleph and taf.


In Isaiah I had located one such spelling in 59:12, you mention two occurrences. How many more in the rest of the surviving DSS? What does that spelling indicate about the original pronunciation of “with”?

Karl W. Randolph.

Re: The letter vav

Post by SteveMiller » Sun May 20, 2018 9:53 pm

Isaac, how would you say ‎ וּבְכָל "and in all"?

Re: The letter vav

Post by Isaac Fried » Sun May 20, 2018 9:27 pm

Indeed, for clarity, spoken ("street") Hebrew, namely the Hebrew of the mouth and the ear, pronounces an initial non-radical with an E (a "segol") in place of a schwa for a radical. For instance,
וְרָדִים VRADIYM, 'roses', וְרִידִים VRIDIYM, 'veins', וְלָדוֹת VLADOT, 'new born'.
But
וְרִיב V(E)RIYB, 'and the cause', וְרוּחִי V(E)RUXIY, 'and my spirit', בְּרוּחָה B(E)RUXAH, 'in her spirit' (but: בְּרוּכָה BRUXAH, 'blessed').

Yet, before a vowel our proverbial Hebrew speaking "man of the street" (say Prof. IF) will revert to an E for a schwa. For instance: צְעָקָה TZ(E)AQAH, 'cry, scream, shout', יְהוּדִי Y(E)HUDIY, 'Jew'.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: The letter vav

Post by SteveMiller » Sun May 20, 2018 9:03 pm

Thanks very much, Ste.
It looks like the plene spellings are mainly by manuscript.
You are right about Isa 39:2 in 1QIsaB. I used Logos to view the DSS and it sometimes fills out the missing part of the verse in []'s, and I missed that the last part of that verse was preceded by a "[" with no closing "]".

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