1 Kings 19, 12

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Expand view Topic review: 1 Kings 19, 12

Re: 1 Kings 19, 12

Post by Saboi » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:32 pm

The Septuagint as a different reading.

αὔρας λεπτῆς "Small breeze"

Through this reading i have identified "דקה" with ψακάς "rain in small drop" therefore affirms the ד
now in Psalm 107:29, the Septuagint reads לדממה as " καὶ ἔστη εἰς αὔραν", then both verses are reading
דממה as αὔρας. ψακάς also relates too ψάμμη "Sand".

ψάμμη/דממה "Sand"

Psalm 107:29 reads "ἔστη εἰς αὔραν" as if its translating ויעמד לדממה
so perhaps דממה is an atavism.

Rev 13:1 - I stood upon the sand of the sea (ἐστάθην ἐπὶ τὴν ἄμμον τῆς θαλάσσης) (ἄμμον/מנהים)

In Joshua 10:1 וידם translates into the same verb, "ἔστη", the initial letters are just grammatical cases, ἔ/וי
דם/στη and 'Stayed" in this verse is עמד "Stand/Still" that translates into στάσει, cf. ἵστημι/σταθμός.

תרדמה - Deep Sleep (Proverbs 19:15) (Odysseus 20.14; δαρθάνω)
דומיה - house of Hades (Psalm 115:17)( Odysseus 12:21; δῶμ᾽Ἀίδαο)

Re: 1 Kings 19, 12

Post by SteveMiller » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:37 pm

I have been studying Psalm 65, and this discussion about 1Ki 19:12 came to mind.

‎Psalm 65:2(1) לְךָ֤ דֻֽמִיָּ֬ה תְהִלָּ֓ה אֱלֹ֨הִ֥ים בְּצִיּ֑וֹן וּ֜לְךָ֗ יְשֻׁלַּם־נֶֽדֶר׃
To You silence, praise belong, O God in Zion, and to You shall men pay a vow.

The word here דֻֽמִיָּ֬ה is a different word than ‎ דְּמָמָ֥ה in 1Ki 19:12, but similar.

In Ps 65, it seems to me to mean silence followed by praise.
There is no waw prefix on "praise" because the 2 go together so strongly, like they are one thing.

That made me think that 1Ki 19:12 was a voice followed by silence.
There is no waw prefix on silence because the voice and the silence following it act as 1 thing.

Then what about the adjective ‎ דַקָּֽה, meaning "small", "fine" or "thin"?
I think it modifies both "voice" and "silence". (The accent marks are wrong.)
A small voice would be one low in volume.
What would a small silence be?
I think "small" just makes sense to modify "voice", but it modifies both because the voice and silence are as 1 thing.
It is a small silence because it follows a small voice.

In Ps 65, it is weighty for our praise to be preceded by silence on our part, to drop our busyness and clear our mind first.
In 1Ki 19, God's small voice is followed by silence so that what He said sinks in.

Re: 1 Kings 19, 12

Post by Isaac Fried » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:23 pm

Today I encountered Obadiah 1:16
‎וְשָׁתוּ וְלָעוּ וְהָיוּ כְּלוֹא הָיוּ
NIV: "they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been."
KJV: "yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been."

So, will they be something (some-thing), or actually nothing (no-thing)? Is Obadiah telling us that there is an intermediate stage between "to be" and "not to be", namely "to be a nothing"?

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: 1 Kings 19, 12

Post by Jason Hare » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:24 am

Jemoh66 wrote:Since Simon and Garfunkel weren't around back then, I don't think sound of silence quite does. It seems obvious to me the he heard a "voice" and that it was a whisper of a voice at that. The context is that God has come to speak with his man. So I don't see in this instance that it's a "sound" and certainly not the absurdity of a sound that makes no sound.

Yeah, I'm glad that you said it. I don't think that a silent sound makes sense in the context. It's clearly supposed to mean a quiet voice, perhaps a voice that could be easily missed if one isn't paying attention.

Re: 1 Kings 19, 12

Post by Jemoh66 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:39 am

Since Simon and Garfunkel weren't around back then, I don't think sound of silence quite does. It seems obvious to me the he heard a "voice" and that it was a whisper of a voice at that. The context is that God has come to speak with his man. So I don't see in this instance that it's a "sound" and certainly not the absurdity of a sound that makes no sound.

Re: 1 Kings 19, 12

Post by Isaac Fried » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:51 pm

Yes, indeed, the sound קול trailing off to thin silence דממה דקה.

Isaac Fried Boston University

Re: 1 Kings 19, 12

Post by Jason Hare » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:21 pm

Isaac Fried wrote:I would translate קוֹל דְּמָמָה דַקָּה as 'a sound of zero (null) volume.'
Isaac Fried, Boston University

Which would be... silence...

Re: 1 Kings 19, 12

Post by Isaac Fried » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:47 pm

I would translate קוֹל דְּמָמָה דַקָּה as 'a sound of zero (null) volume.'
Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: 1 Kings 19, 12

Post by Jason Hare » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:04 pm

Honestly, I hadn't look at the trope.

וְאַחַ֣ר הָאֵ֔שׁ ק֖וֹל דְּמָמָ֥ה דַקָּֽה׃

munach katon || tipcha | mercha sof-pasuk

I think the purpose is to join the phrase דממה דקה since דקה is actually modifying דממה and not קול. Therefore, the anchor of the קול becomes the whole phrase דממה דקה. That is, [a-voice-of [a thin whisper]], if we take דמהה as "whisper" like you mentioned before. Remember that tipcha doesn't break a phrase completely. Otherwise, "the heavens and the earth" in Genesis 1:1 would be broken apart.

בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃

It is a minor disjunction, not a major one.

Re: 1 Kings 19, 12

Post by sebalou » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:03 am

Hi Jason,

thanks for your answer. And sorry for the typo, you are completely right, this is "daqqâ".

If we take it as a construct, what would be the reason of the disjunctive accent under "qol" in the BHS? I'm a bit confused with it.

Thanks again to all.

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