To you or for you

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ducky
Posts: 658
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Re: To you or for you

Post by ducky »

Hi Karl,

What do you mean by "misreading it" and "wrong verse number"?

you wrote above your translation:
kwrandolph wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:45 pm Genesis 27:37 “Go where? What can I do?” figurative use.
And Genesis 27:37 says:
וּלְכָה אֵפוֹא מָה אֶעֱשֶׂה בְּנִי

And according to that, it seems that you translated it as:
Go = ולכה
Where = אפוא
What = מה
Can I do = אעשה

Isn't it what you meant?
David Hunter
ducky
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Re: To you or for you

Post by ducky »

kwrandolph wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:45 pm Isaiah 3:6 שִׂמְלָה לְכָה
Isaiah 3:6 “Come and you can be a commander over us”
The verse says:
כִּי יִתְפֹּשׂ אִישׁ בְּאָחִיו בֵּית אָבִיו שִׂמְלָה לְכָה קָצִין תִּהְיֶה לָּנוּ

**
I wrote only שמלה לכה - linking the two words together.

According to your translation, the word שמלה is linked to the first part of the verse (since you started your translation with the word לכה - that you read as "go/come"

And so, you part the verse like this:
כִּי יִתְפֹּשׂ אִישׁ בְּאָחִיו בֵּית אָבִיו שִׂמְלָה
לְכָה - קָצִין תִּהְיֶה לָּנוּ

And with that, It seems that you understand the first part saying that a man grabs his fellow in his mantle, and says to him: come and be our ruler.

1. But if we just continue reading the next verse, it says that the other man (the fellow) says: I have no mantle.

And so, how can one be grabbed by his mantle, and then say: I have no mantle?

2. Just by looking at the next verse, at the fellow's answer that says "I have no mantle"...
What kind of answer is it if this mantle was not part of the reason for the request?

This answer could only come only if this mantle was used as one of the reasons in the request.
-You have a mantle, be our ruler.
-I don't have a mantle, and I don't want to be your ruler.

But if you read it only as each man grabbed his fellow by his mantle and says to him: Be our ruler,
What kind of answer is it to say: "I have no mantle".
First, he was grabbed by it
Second, why even mention it in his reply?
What does this mantle have to do with something?

But it does have to do with his answer - Because that is the reason for his so-called worthiness.
-You have a mantle, therefore you are worthy.
-I don't have a mantle, and I can't even manage my own home well enough, and I don't want to be your ruler.
David Hunter
ducky
Posts: 658
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: To you or for you

Post by ducky »

kwrandolph wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:45 pm 2Samuel 18:22 וּלְכָה אֵין בְּשׂוֹרָה מֹצֵאת
2Samuel 18:22 “Come now! You haven’t found a report”
According to your translation, you read the word מצאת as a QTL verb (Perfect, 2nd person).

And you linked the verb to the negative word אין.
(You haven't found...).
As if the negative word אין negates the verb מצאת=found.

But the negative word אין does not negate verbs.
It negates nouns and participles.

When a verb is negated, it is made by the negative word לא.

so there is no: אין מצאת (when מצאת is a verb).
But only: לא מצאת.

This is only about the technical part.

*****
There is more to say about how you translated this ולכה in a "calming down" meaning of "come now"...

But I think that the syntax alone is enough to show that this translation doesn't fit.
David Hunter
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: To you or for you

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

ducky wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:15 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:45 pm 2Samuel 18:22 וּלְכָה אֵין בְּשׂוֹרָה מֹצֵאת
2Samuel 18:22 “Come now! You haven’t found a report”
According to your translation, you read the word מצאת as a QTL verb (Perfect, 2nd person).

And you linked the verb to the negative word אין.
(You haven't found...).
As if the negative word אין negates the verb מצאת=found.

But the negative word אין does not negate verbs.
It negates nouns and participles.

When a verb is negated, it is made by the negative word לא.

so there is no: אין מצאת (when מצאת is a verb).
But only: לא מצאת.

This is only about the technical part.

*****
There is more to say about how you translated this ולכה in a "calming down" meaning of "come now"...

But I think that the syntax alone is enough to show that this translation doesn't fit.
David,
What is your translation of this quote?
Kenneth Greifer
ducky
Posts: 658
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: To you or for you

Post by ducky »

Hi Kenneth,

First, I have to correct myself.
I said before, that when this verse is translated with the word "reward", I said that this meaning comes as a completion to the word מצאת.

This is what I said automatically when I saw the English translations.
And some really see this like that.

But I wasn't accurate at all because the word בשורה alone, which its meaning is "report", can bear the meaning of "reward" with it.
I mean, Instead of saying "report's reward" - it is said only "report".
This is what I saw in 2Sam 4:10 אשר לתתי לו בשורה.
It is said only בשורה - but the meaning is the reward of the בשורה.

It also happens in the word פעלה (work).
For example, פעלת שכיר (the work of a hired man).
But the meaning is the *wage* for the hired man's work.
(Like in Levi 19:13).

**********************************

Anyway, I have a little bit of doubt about giving this verse any understanding of "rewarding" as if the runner runs only to get a reward and never mind what.
It seems that he was so excited to run just to bring the good news about the victory.
(And of course, no reward is mentioned at all - for the two runners).

****************************

I looked at some of the English translations.
And my opinion is close to what [TLB] writes:
"There is no further news to send".

That understanding comes from the meaning of "sufficient" (or something like that).

Because Ahima'ats got these words from Yoav after the second runner already went. And so, Yoav now used the reason of There is no further news to send.

The combination of מצא+ל has the meaning of having enough.
For example, Num. 11:22.

With that, we can understand the words of Yoav to Ahima'ats.
Saying that there is not enough "news" for you to tell.
There is only one report, and it was already been taken, and so, there is nothing left for you.
In other words: "There is no further news to send".
David Hunter
kwrandolph
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Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: To you or for you

Post by kwrandolph »

ducky wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:56 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:45 pm Isaiah 3:6 שִׂמְלָה לְכָה
Isaiah 3:6 “Come and you can be a commander over us”
The verse says:
כִּי יִתְפֹּשׂ אִישׁ בְּאָחִיו בֵּית אָבִיו שִׂמְלָה לְכָה קָצִין תִּהְיֶה לָּנוּ

**
I wrote only שמלה לכה - linking the two words together.
From what I can see, those two words are not linked.
ducky wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:56 pmAccording to your translation, the word שמלה is linked to the first part of the verse (since you started your translation with the word לכה - that you read as "go/come"

And so, you part the verse like this:
כִּי יִתְפֹּשׂ אִישׁ בְּאָחִיו בֵּית אָבִיו שִׂמְלָה
לְכָה - קָצִין תִּהְיֶה לָּנוּ
Yep, that’s the reading I get.
ducky wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:56 pmAnd with that, It seems that you understand the first part saying that a man grabs his fellow in his mantle, and says to him: come and be our ruler.
Where do you get “mantle”? Do you really believe that the pointing is correct?

With the same consonants you have a rarely used verb מלה in participle as a noun referring an actor with a prefixed ש.
ducky wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:56 pm1. But if we just continue reading the next verse, it says that the other man (the fellow) says: I have no mantle.
The “other man” or is this the same man who does the grabbing?
ducky wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:56 pmAnd you linked the verb to the negative word אין.
Have you forgotten the many times I’ve written “translation ≠ original”? Here’s an example where English connects the negative to the verb, while in Hebrew the negative is connected to the noun. This is a quirk of translation. The same sort of quirk that changes “go” in Hebrew to “come” in English. That doesn’t change the meaning in Hebrew. It’s just that English uses a complete different construction to express the same idea.

Karl W. Randolph.
ducky
Posts: 658
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: To you or for you

Post by ducky »

Hi Karl,

I'm interested in what you're saying, but I didn't really understand it.
Can you translate the verse in Isaiah in a literal way?

Also, are you sure you don't want to read it as שמלה(=mantle, cloth, cloak)?
We can see it comes again in the next verse.

Anyway, I'm interested to see your literal translation.

************************************************

About the verse in Sam...

I don't think the relationship between the English way and Hebrew way is relevant to this.

The issue is the principle.
If you wanted to read the מצאת as a negated-verb, that would be a problem.
Because the negation-word in this verse is אין.
And this negation word אין doesn't negate verbs.
David Hunter
kwrandolph
Posts: 1238
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 am

Re: To you or for you

Post by kwrandolph »

ducky wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:35 am Hi Karl,

I'm interested in what you're saying, but I didn't really understand it.
Can you translate the verse in Isaiah in a literal way?
The word in Hebrew I read as ש‫+‬מלה meaning “who is stating” or “the one who states”
ducky wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:35 amAlso, are you sure you don't want to read it as שמלה(=mantle, cloth, cloak)?
We can see it comes again in the next verse.
Just because you have the same consonants doesn’t mean that you have the same word. This can be a homograph.
ducky wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:35 amAbout the verse in Sam...

I don't think the relationship between the English way and Hebrew way is relevant to this.
Yes it is, because of the following……
ducky wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:35 amThe issue is the principle.
If you wanted to read the מצאת as a negated-verb, that would be a problem.
Because the negation-word in this verse is אין.
And this negation word אין doesn't negate verbs.
You wouldn’t say that, if you knew the differences between languages.

English attaches the negative to the verb. Hebrew attaches the negative to the noun. That does not mean that I misunderstood the Hebrew. If I want to express the same idea in both languages, I don’t make a word-for-word translation from one language to another. Rather I make a somewhat free translation that is correct for both languages. That means in English I attach the negative to the verb, and in Hebrew I attach the negative to the noun.

You obviously don’t understand the relationship between languages. If you did, you wouldn’t make such an issue between how the idea is expressed differently in the different languages.

A similar situation exists where Hebrew uses לכה meaning “go” but English uses “come”. That doesn’t change the meaning in Hebrew. It’s just that English, being a different language, uses “come” where Hebrew uses “go”. Don’t use the English translation to understand what it meant in Hebrew.

Karl W. Randolph.
ducky
Posts: 658
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: To you or for you

Post by ducky »

Hi Karl,

The relationship between languages is not relevant to this issue.

I'll say it this way...
Even if my neighbor, who speaks the same language that I speak, would explain to me this verse in HEBREW in the same way that you did, I would still say to him what I said to you.
Because it is not about in what language the explanation is told, but it is about the principles that we see in Hebrew (the written source).

****
About Isaiah,
Can you please translate this verse?
David Hunter
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