Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

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kwrandolph
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

Post by kwrandolph »

Jason Hare wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:56 am … Gesenius …, and—of course—his grammar treats biblical Hebrew.
He didn’t treat Biblical Hebrew, rather Tanakh as interpreted by the Masoretes. Biblical Hebrew had no dots, not even those to distinguish between the Sin and Shin. Where the dots deviate from the consonantal text, Gesenius went with the Masoretic points. Both Gesenius’ dictionary and grammar show that problem.

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Jason Hare
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

Post by Jason Hare »

kwrandolph wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:56 pm
Jason Hare wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:56 am … Gesenius …, and—of course—his grammar treats biblical Hebrew.
He didn’t treat Biblical Hebrew, rather Tanakh as interpreted by the Masoretes. Biblical Hebrew had no dots, not even those to distinguish between the Sin and Shin. Where the dots deviate from the consonantal text, Gesenius went with the Masoretic points. Both Gesenius’ dictionary and grammar show that problem.

Karl W. Randolph.
The difference between the two periods of the language is one of syntax and lexis. It has nothing to do with pronunciation. You’re basically saying that because the words are pointed a certain way, then they represent a different form of the language. That’s not how it works. If you aren’t interested in contributing to a discussion, you may choose to refrain from posting in it. This thread is about conditional forms, not about differences in pronunciation (pointing) between the various periods of the language.
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

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Mike Atnip wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:42 pm I spent a couple hours going over both the Greek and Hebrew conditional sentences. I think I have the framework in mind, but I need some time to let it get settled into my brain and become second nature to me as I read.
Should I hold on a bit before posting the examples from Gesenius? Or, would you mind if we moved forward?
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kwrandolph
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

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Jason Hare wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:01 am The difference between the two periods of the language is one of syntax and lexis. It has nothing to do with pronunciation.
It’s not the differences in pronunciation, because we don’t know what were the Biblical era pronunciations. We have a few clues, but not enough to recover the whole.

What I refer to is that the points that the Masorets assigned to words tell us how they understood Tanakh. They tell us also how they understood Biblical Hebrew grammar and syntax. Those points often grammatically deviate from the consonantal text of Biblical Hebrew.

I also made a specific reference to the posted quote from Arnold and Choi (I have no idea who they are) saying that the majority of the examples that they list as conditionals, are not conditionals in Biblical Hebrew. So will we discuss conditionals in Biblical Hebrew consonantal text, or will we just ignore Tanakh and just meander about what others say about the text?

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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

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kwrandolph wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:42 pm[The Masoretic vowel] points often grammatically deviate from the consonantal text of Biblical Hebrew.
I have absolutely no idea what that means. The points just show how words should be pronounced (according to the Masoretes). Points are the addition of vowels. They do not change grammar, except when they indicate the difference between וַיִּקְטֹל (vayyiqṭōl, narrative past) and וְיִקְטֹל (vəyiqṭōl, vav with irrealis). These things are also generally distinguishable without points. I don’t understand how you think that grammar is changed by changing points. You’ve got me stumped—but I’m not interested enough to continue letting this thread be distracted by your idiosyncratic approach to Hebrew. Start a different thread if you want to continue to make these claims.
kwrandolph wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:42 pmI also made a specific reference to the posted quote from Arnold and Choi (I have no idea who they are) saying that the majority of the examples that they list as conditionals, are not conditionals in Biblical Hebrew. So will we discuss conditionals in Biblical Hebrew consonantal text, or will we just ignore Tanakh and just meander about what others say about the text?
Not all conditional clauses begin with if. Perhaps you can suspend judgment until we’ve gone through the discussions on the topic, and then you can comment about why you think everyone but you is terrible at grammar and misunderstands the entire spectrum of possible combinations that represent if... then... arguments and abstract thinking.
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Mike Atnip
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

Post by Mike Atnip »

Jason Hare wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:20 pm
Mike Atnip wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:42 pm I spent a couple hours going over both the Greek and Hebrew conditional sentences. I think I have the framework in mind, but I need some time to let it get settled into my brain and become second nature to me as I read.
Should I hold on a bit before posting the examples from Gesenius? Or, would you mind if we moved forward?
You need not wait on me. If you post more than I can handle for the moment I can always come back later and review.
Mike Atnip
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

Post by Mike Atnip »

I was trying to map the Greek conditional types to the Hebrew types, then I went looking for some kind of universally applied numbering system for conditional sentences. English also has four types (0,1,2,3).
Am I understanding this right that there is no universal numbering/ordering system (pan-linguistically) for conditional sentence types? It seems like linguists should/could get their heads together and come up with a universal numbering system. Of course not every language would use all types, but at least it would make things easier. Or at least it seems like it should. (Sample: If every language would use the same numbering sentence, then it would make things simpler. :-))
Mike Atnip
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

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Mike Atnip wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:51 pm I was trying to map the Greek conditional types to the Hebrew types, then I went looking for some kind of universally applied numbering system for conditional sentences. English also has four types (0,1,2,3).
Am I understanding this right that there is no universal numbering/ordering system (pan-linguistically) for conditional sentence types? It seems like linguists should/could get their heads together and come up with a universal numbering system. Of course not every language would use all types, but at least it would make things easier. Or at least it seems like it should. (Sample: If every language would use the same numbering sentence, then it would make things simpler. :-))
It certainly would be nice to have a universal categorization. But, of course, many languages do not code the same way, so we would have languages with type 1, type 3, and type 4, with no type 2 (just throwing numbers out).
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kwrandolph
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

Post by kwrandolph »

You don’t get it, do you?
Jason Hare wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:19 am
kwrandolph wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:42 pm[The Masoretic vowel] points often grammatically deviate from the consonantal text of Biblical Hebrew.
I have absolutely no idea what that means.
I first noticed it fairly early on when reading Tanakh, when I noticed consonantal Hophal verbs pointed as Hiphils. Later I noticed nouns pointed as verbs, Qals pointed as participles, and so forth. That’s why I stopped reading the points, already decades ago, and remember only a handful of examples, if even that many.
Jason Hare wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:19 am
kwrandolph wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:42 pmI also made a specific reference to the posted quote from Arnold and Choi (I have no idea who they are) saying that the majority of the examples that they list as conditionals, are not conditionals in Biblical Hebrew. So will we discuss conditionals in Biblical Hebrew consonantal text, or will we just ignore Tanakh and just meander about what others say about the text?
Not all conditional clauses begin with if. Perhaps you can suspend judgment until we’ve gone through the discussions on the topic, and then you can comment about why you think everyone but you is terrible at grammar and misunderstands the entire spectrum of possible combinations that represent if... then... arguments and abstract thinking.
Examples from Arnold and Choi that are NOT conditionals:

1 Sam 19:3 וְרָאִיתִי מָה וְהִגַּדְתִּי לָךְ “… and I will see what happens and will tell you.” Simple declarative statement.

Judg 6:13 וְיֵשׁ יְהוָה עִמָּנוּ וְלָמָּה מְצָאַתְנוּ כָּל־זֹאת “and is YHWH with us? Then why are we dealing with this? Question.

Lev 25:20 מַה־נֹּאכַל בַּשָּׁנָה הַשְּׁבִיעִת הֵן לֹא נִזְרָע “What should we eat in the seventh year, behold (because) we should not sow?” Question.

2 Kgs 4:29 is often translated into English as a conditional, but it is not a conditional in Hebrew. Here Arnold and Choi apply to Biblical Hebrew the meaning of English. It’s the use of the Yiqtol that makes it come out as a conditional in English but not Biblical Hebrew.

Before going through all sorts of pilpul concerning conditionals, should we not first accurately define them?

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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

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kwrandolph wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:27 pmJudg 6:13 וְיֵשׁ יְהוָה עִמָּנוּ וְלָמָּה מְצָאַתְנוּ כָּל־זֹאת “and is YHWH with us? Then why are we dealing with this? Question.
The feminine זֹאת zōʾṯ is the subject of מְצָאַ֫תְנוּ məṣāʾáṯnû, which is מָֽצְאָה אֹתָ֫נוּ māṣəʾâ ʾōṯā́nû “it found us.” That is, “why has all of this (calamity) found us?” The initial statement is giving what should be a contrary condition, “Given that Yahweh is with us, why has all this happened to us?” It seems to me that you’re translating מְצָאַ֫תְנוּ məṣāʾáṯnû (“she/it found us”) as if it were מָצָ֫אנוּ māṣā́ʾnû (“we found”).

Conditionals do not have to appear as “if” followed by “then.” In Greek, participles are often used for the same kind of argument as a conditional. It’s the type of argument, not the specific form. We are going to look at the forms that conditional statements take. I wish you could just hold your peace until we finish the discussion. We can give place to discussion of whether these statements should be included in a discussion of conditionals at all, but this isn’t that place. We are only at the point of going through an introduction, not of getting into specific forms.
kwrandolph wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:27 pmBefore going through all sorts of pilpul concerning conditionals, should we not first accurately define them?
Indeed. First, we will talk about what conditionals are. Only then will we go into their forms, and we can discuss if we agree or disagree with the grammarians regarding their identification.
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