Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

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Jason Hare
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

Post by Jason Hare »

Gesenius §159.c
    (a) Imperfect (cf. § 107 x) in protasis and apodosis, Jos 22:18, Ps 104:28 ff. תִּתֵּן לָהֶם 2יִלְקֹטוּ֑ן (if) thou givest unto them, they gather, &c.; Ps 139:18, Pr 12:17, Jb 20:24, Ec 1:18, Neh 1:8; with an interrogative imperfect in the apodosis, Ju 13:12; with the jussive, Jb 10:16; with the cohortative, Pr. 1:23; with the perfect, Is 26:10 (yet will he not learn righteousness; the apodosis forcibly denies what the imperfect in the protasis had represented as still conceivable; cf. Ho 8:12); with the perfect consecutive, Gn 47:25, Ex 33:5; with the protasis suppressed, Jb 5:8 (see § 107 x).

    2 On the termination -וּן cf. § 47 m. In verse 28 b also יִשְׂבְּעוּן is probably to be explained from its immediately preceding the greater pause. These terminations in verses 28–30 and Ps 139:18 can scarcely have any connexion with the conditional sentence, although it is strange that -וּן in Nu 32:23 appears after אִם־לֹא in the protasis. In Nu 16:29, 32:20 -וּן as before א (as in Jb 31:10 in the apodosis) is to be explained from the dislike of hiatus.
So, there are many verses mentioned here in passing. Let’s start by pulling them from BHS. I will ignore the verse references in the footnote, since it is dealing with the difference between 3mp imperfects with and without the nun.

1. Jos 22:18
    וְאַתֶּם֙ תָּשֻׁ֣בוּ הַיֹּ֔ום מֵאַחֲרֵ֖י יְהוָ֑ה וְהָיָ֗ה אַתֶּ֞‬ם תִּמְרְד֤וּ הַיֹּום֙ בַּֽיהוָ֔ה וּמָחָ֕ר אֶֽל־כָּל־עֲדַ֥ת יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל יִקְצֹֽף׃


2. Ps 104:28 ff
    תִּתֵּ֣ן לָ֭הֶם יִלְקֹט֑וּן תִּפְתַּ֥ח יָֽ֝דְךָ֗ יִשְׂבְּע֥וּן טֹֽוב׃
    תַּסְתִּ֥יר פָּנֶיךָ֮ יִֽבָּהֵ֫ל֥וּן תֹּסֵ֣ף ר֭וּחָם יִגְוָע֑וּן וְֽאֶל־עֲפָרָ֥ם יְשׁוּבֽוּן׃
    תְּשַׁלַּ֣ח ר֭וּחֲךָ יִבָּרֵא֑וּן וּ֝תְחַדֵּ֗שׁ פְּנֵ֣י אֲדָמָֽה׃


3. Ps 139:18
    אֶ֭סְפְּרֵם מֵחֹ֣ול יִרְבּ֑וּן הֱ֝קִיצֹ֗תִי וְעֹודִ֥י עִמָּֽךְ׃


4. Pr 12:17
    יָפִ֣יחַ אֱ֭מוּנָה יַגִּ֣יד צֶ֑דֶק וְעֵ֖ד שְׁקָרִ֣ים מִרְמָֽה׃


5. Jb 20:24
    יִ֭בְרַח מִנֵּ֣שֶׁק בַּרְזֶ֑ל תַּ֝חְלְפֵ֗הוּ קֶ֣שֶׁת נְחוּשָֽׁה׃


6. Ec 1:18
    כִּ֛י בְּרֹ֥ב חָכְמָ֖ה רָב־כָּ֑עַס וְיֹוסִ֥יף דַּ֖עַת יֹוסִ֥יף מַכְאֹֽוב׃


7. Neh 1:8
    זְכָר־נָא֙ אֶת־הַדָּבָ֔ר אֲשֶׁ֥ר צִוִּ֛יתָ אֶת־מֹשֶׁ֥ה עַבְדְּךָ֖ לֵאמֹ֑ר אַתֶּ֣ם תִּמְעָ֔לוּ אֲנִ֕י אָפִ֥יץ אֶתְכֶ֖ם בָּעַמִּֽים׃


8. Ju 13:12
    וַיֹּ֣אמֶר מָנֹ֔וחַ עַתָּ֖ה יָבֹ֣א דְבָרֶ֑יךָ מַה־יִּֽהְיֶ֥ה מִשְׁפַּט־הַנַּ֖עַר וּמַעֲשֵֽׂהוּ׃


9. Jb 10:16
    וְ֭יִגְאֶה כַּשַּׁ֣חַל תְּצוּדֵ֑נִי וְ֝תָשֹׁ֗ב תִּתְפַּלָּא־בִֽי׃


10. Pr. 1:23
    תָּשׁ֗וּבוּ לְֽתֹ֫וכַחְתִּ֥י הִנֵּ֤ה אַבִּ֣יעָה לָכֶ֣ם רוּחִ֑י אֹודִ֖יעָה דְבָרַ֣י אֶתְכֶֽם׃


11. Is 26:10
    יֻחַ֤ן רָשָׁע֙ בַּל־לָמַ֣ד צֶ֔דֶק בְּאֶ֥רֶץ נְכֹחֹ֖ות יְעַוֵּ֑ל וּבַל־יִרְאֶ֖ה גֵּא֥וּת יְהוָֽה׃


12. Ho 8:12
    אֶ֨כְתָּוב־לֹ֔ו רֻבֵּ֖ו תֹּֽורָתִ֑י כְּמֹו־זָ֖ר נֶחְשָֽׁבוּ׃


13. Gn 47:25
    וַיֹּאמְר֖וּ הֶחֱיִתָ֑נוּ נִמְצָא־חֵן֙ בְּעֵינֵ֣י אֲדֹנִ֔י וְהָיִ֥ינוּ עֲבָדִ֖ים לְפַרְעֹֽה׃


14. Ex 33:5
    וַיֹּ֨אמֶר יְהוָ֜ה אֶל־מֹשֶׁ֗ה אֱמֹ֤ר אֶל־בְּנֵֽי־יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ אַתֶּ֣ם עַם־קְשֵׁה־עֹ֔רֶף רֶ֧גַע אֶחָ֛ד אֶֽעֱלֶ֥ה בְקִרְבְּךָ֖ וְכִלִּיתִ֑יךָ וְעַתָּ֗ה הֹורֵ֤ד עֶדְיְךָ֙ מֵֽעָלֶ֔יךָ וְאֵדְעָ֖ה מָ֥ה אֶֽעֱשֶׂה־לָּֽךְ׃


15. Jb 5:8
     אוּלָ֗ם אֲ֭נִי אֶדְרֹ֣שׁ אֶל־אֵ֑ל וְאֶל־אֱ֝לֹהִ֗ים אָשִׂ֥ים דִּבְרָתִֽי׃


In these examples, Gesenius is saying that it is possible in Hebrew to create a conditional by using two imperfects. The modal sense of the imperfect can be translated with “should” in English, in my opinion. Thus, “should you do this, this will happen” or “if you do this, this will happen.” This seems almost like the future more vivid in Greek (ἐὰν τοῦτο ποιήσῃς, καλῶς ποιήσεις). Let’s look at Proverbs 1:23 as an example.
Proverbs 1:23
תָּשׁ֗וּבוּ לְֽתֹ֫וכַחְתִּ֥י הִנֵּ֤ה אַבִּ֣יעָה לָכֶ֣ם רוּחִ֑י אֹודִ֖יעָה דְבָרַ֣י אֶתְכֶֽם׃
[you(pl)-shall-return to-my-correction, behold, I-will-express to-you(pl) my-spirit, I-will-make-known my-words with-you(pl)]
If you respond to my correction, behold, I will express my spirit to you and make my words known to you.
The literal expression is clearly “this will happen, and this will happen,” but the latter phrase is dependent on the fulfillment of the first one. It is acting like a result clause (an apodosis), and the former is acting like a conditional clause (a protasis). It is a conditional without the words “if” and “then.” It is wisdom personified speaking to those in the streets that if they will perform repentance or heed her reproof, then she would teach them words of wisdom. It is a conditional that is built only out of imperfects. Conditionals do not have to contain the words “if” and “then.” It is about the relationship between the clauses—one in which the apodosis is dependent on the protasis for its truth.

Any comments or questions?
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יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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kwrandolph
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

Post by kwrandolph »

Jason Hare wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:42 pm Indeed. First, we will talk about what conditionals are. Only then will we go into their forms, and we can discuss if we agree or disagree with the grammarians regarding their identification.
If the forms are being used to define what are conditionals, then the agreement or disagreement with their identifications becomes important.
Jason Hare wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:26 pm Gesenius §159.c
    (a) Imperfect (cf. § 107 x) in protasis and apodosis, …

So, there are many verses mentioned here in passing. ….
(I won’t repeat them here, they’re in the previous message.)

I read through all of them, including their contexts. Almost none of them fits the use of a conditional in Biblical Hebrew.
Jason Hare wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:42 pm In these examples, Gesenius is saying that it is possible in Hebrew to create a conditional by using two imperfects.
But does the Greek example which he uses fit Biblical Hebrew?
Jason Hare wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:42 pm The modal sense of the imperfect can be translated with “should” in English, in my opinion.
The Yiqtol (let’s be accurate, it’s not an imperfect because Biblical Hebrew verbs are tenseless and aspectless) has other uses than the equivalent of the “should” in English. Other uses include…
• commands
• intention
• “results in” often following a Qatal verb
• expectation
• possibility
• permission
• and by far the most common, usually prefixed by a waw, a continuation of the previous thought or further information, also found in narration to indicate what comes next.
Jason Hare wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:42 pm Thus, “should you do this, this will happen” or “if you do this, this will happen.” This seems almost like the future more vivid in Greek (ἐὰν τοῦτο ποιήσῃς, καλῶς ποιήσεις). Let’s look at Proverbs 1:23 as an example.
Greek has tenses. Biblical Hebrew doesn’t.
Jason Hare wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:42 pm
Proverbs 1:23
תָּשׁ֗וּבוּ לְֽתֹ֫וכַחְתִּ֥י הִנֵּ֤ה אַבִּ֣יעָה לָכֶ֣ם רוּחִ֑י אֹודִ֖יעָה דְבָרַ֣י אֶתְכֶֽם׃
[you(pl)-shall-return to-my-correction, behold, I-will-express to-you(pl) my-spirit, I-will-make-known my-words with-you(pl)]
If you respond to my correction, behold, I will express my spirit to you and make my words known to you.
The first verb in the verse is an imperative, the next two are Yiqtols to show their connection with the first verb. Continuation.
Jason Hare wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:42 pm The literal expression is clearly “this will happen, and this will happen,” but the latter phrase is dependent on the fulfillment of the first one. It is acting like a result clause (an apodosis), and the former is acting like a conditional clause (a protasis). It is a conditional without the words “if” and “then.” It is wisdom personified speaking to those in the streets that if they will perform repentance or heed her reproof, then she would teach them words of wisdom.
Wisdom is already teaching words of wisdom, one of those words being the imperative “Return to my reproof”
Jason Hare wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:42 pm It is a conditional that is built only out of imperfects. Conditionals do not have to contain the words “if” and “then.” It is about the relationship between the clauses—one in which the apodosis is dependent on the protasis for its truth.

Any comments or questions?
<!-- Snipped from this post and moved to new thread. - Jason>

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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

Post by Jason Hare »

kwrandolph wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:25 pmI read through all of them, including their contexts. Almost none of them fits the use of a conditional in Biblical Hebrew.
You have spoken.
kwrandolph wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:25 pm
Jason Hare wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:42 pm In these examples, Gesenius is saying that it is possible in Hebrew to create a conditional by using two imperfects.
But does the Greek example which he uses fit Biblical Hebrew?
What Greek example? All of his examples are in Hebrew. I see no Greek text in this section that I quoted from Gesenius.
kwrandolph wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:25 pm
Jason Hare wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:42 pm The modal sense of the imperfect can be translated with “should” in English, in my opinion.
The Yiqtol (let’s be accurate, it’s not an imperfect because Biblical Hebrew verbs are tenseless and aspectless) has other uses than the equivalent of the “should” in English.
Demonstrated again by divine fiat.
kwrandolph wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:25 pmOther uses include…
• commands
• intention
• “results in” often following a Qatal verb
• expectation
• possibility
• permission
• and by far the most common, usually prefixed by a waw, a continuation of the previous thought or further information, also found in narration to indicate what comes next.
For this reason, yiqtol (I use “imperfect” because this is the terminology that most students of Hebrew have learned, and terminology matters less to me than comprehensibility) is generally referred to as irreal by John Cook—but not the vayyiqtol, which you seem to not recognize at all.
kwrandolph wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:25 pm
Jason Hare wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:42 pm Thus, “should you do this, this will happen” or “if you do this, this will happen.” This seems almost like the future more vivid in Greek (ἐὰν τοῦτο ποιήσῃς, καλῶς ποιήσεις). Let’s look at Proverbs 1:23 as an example.
Greek has tenses. Biblical Hebrew doesn’t.
I think you’ll find that there are also a ton of people out there who think that Greek itself doesn’t code for tense. The tenses coded in biblical Hebrew relative and aspectual. I have spoken.
kwrandolph wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:25 pm
Jason Hare wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:42 pm
Proverbs 1:23
תָּשׁ֗וּבוּ לְֽתֹ֫וכַחְתִּ֥י הִנֵּ֤ה אַבִּ֣יעָה לָכֶ֣ם רוּחִ֑י אֹודִ֖יעָה דְבָרַ֣י אֶתְכֶֽם׃
[you(pl)-shall-return to-my-correction, behold, I-will-express to-you(pl) my-spirit, I-will-make-known my-words with-you(pl)]
If you respond to my correction, behold, I will express my spirit to you and make my words known to you.
The first verb in the verse is an imperative, the next two are Yiqtols to show their connection with the first verb. Continuation.
תָּשׁ֫וּבוּ is not an imperative. It is a 2mp yiqtol. The imperative form is שׁ֫וּבוּ. It may be a yiqtol used with imperative force (something you’d have to argue for), but it is certainly not an imperative in form.
kwrandolph wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:25 pmWisdom is already teaching words of wisdom, one of those words being the imperative “Return to my reproof”
I disagree.
kwrandolph wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:25 pm <!-- Snipped from this post and moved to new thread. - Jason>

Karl W. Randolph.
I will begin pruning out any comments about your opinion that the language studied by Bible studients the world over is not biblical Hebrew. They will all be placed in one thread where that can be argued ad nauseam. The forum cannot be overrun with these types of arguments.
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

Post by Jonathan Beck »

This is the way.
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

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Jonathan Beck wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:05 pm This is the way.
It is known. (Mixing shows.) Reminds me of the Aramaic of Ezra...
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

Post by Jonathan Beck »

I think there is a helpful way of looking at BH (Biblical Hebrew) that can help us account for conditional mood. If we figure in terms of mood (indicative/subjunctive, modal qatal/yiqtols, or real/irreal mood - whatever you want to call it) we can figure it out.

There Does. Not. Have. To. Be. An if-then statement. In a clause. To make it conditional. If you can supply the words "if" and "then" and the sentence still makes sense (based upon its context), it is a conditional. The relationship can be indicated by a waw conjunction as well as אִם/אָז. For example (I'm just making up some sentences here):

וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם אֶת־מִצְוֹתַי וִהְיִיתֶם עַמִּי
If you obey my commandments, then you shall be my people. The vav conjunction on the verb signifies irreal mood. Irreal mood can exist with either a qatal or yiqtol.

Particles like אִם and אָז also signify irreal mood. Other irreal mood indicators that occur are clauses such as imperative, cause/effect (with waw+yiqtol) or purpose/result (usually also with waw+yiqtol).

At least in John Cook's view, verb/subject inversion also indicates irrreal mood.

So, if you're trying to figure out if a sentence is conditional, just go through your options. :) There is no need to memorize every name of every construction.

Jason can correct my statements if I'm wrong. :)

Jonathan
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

Post by kwrandolph »

Jason Hare wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:01 pm For this reason, yiqtol … is generally referred to as irreal by John Cook—but not the vayyiqtol, which you seem to not recognize at all.
Who is John Cook that I should listen to him?

By the way, many of what you call weyiqtol are also not irreal. Like Dr. Rolf Furuli, who used to post on this forum, I don’t recognize the wayyiqtol as being separate from the weyiqtol.
Jason Hare wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:01 pm I have spoken.
LOL!!!
Jason Hare wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:01 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:25 pm
Jason Hare wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:42 pm
Proverbs 1:23
תָּשׁ֗וּבוּ לְֽתֹ֫וכַחְתִּ֥י הִנֵּ֤ה אַבִּ֣יעָה לָכֶ֣ם רוּחִ֑י אֹודִ֖יעָה דְבָרַ֣י אֶתְכֶֽם׃
[you(pl)-shall-return to-my-correction, behold, I-will-express to-you(pl) my-spirit, I-will-make-known my-words with-you(pl)]
If you respond to my correction, behold, I will express my spirit to you and make my words known to you.
The first verb in the verse is an imperative, the next two are Yiqtols to show their connection with the first verb. Continuation.
תָּשׁ֫וּבוּ is not an imperative. It is a 2mp yiqtol. The imperative form is שׁ֫וּבוּ. It may be a yiqtol used with imperative force (something you’d have to argue for), but it is certainly not an imperative in form.
It is a Yiqtol used with imperative meaning. Look at the context of the verses around it. The other verbs in that verse refer to present actions, not future dependent upon the fulfillment of the first verb.
Jason Hare wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:01 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:25 pm <!-- Snipped from this post and moved to new thread. - Jason>

Karl W. Randolph.
I will begin pruning out any comments about your opinion that the language studied by Bible studients the world over is not biblical Hebrew. They will all be placed in one thread where that can be argued ad nauseam. The forum cannot be overrun with these types of arguments.
And what is your definition of Biblical Hebrew? For me, it is the consonantal text alone. For me, the Masoretic points don’t represent Biblical Hebrew because they frequently deviate in meaning from the consonantal text.

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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

Post by Jason Hare »

kwrandolph wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:28 pmWho is John Cook that I should listen to him?
You don’t remember him? You are a big part of his reason for leaving B-Hebrew years ago.
kwrandolph wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:28 pmBy the way, many of what you call weyiqtol are also not irreal. Like Dr. Rolf Furuli, who used to post on this forum, I don’t recognize the wayyiqtol as being separate from the weyiqtol.
I’ve seen plenty to cause me to distrust Furuli’s abilities with the Hebrew language, especially his defense of the New World Translation’s translation of סָבִיב in this thread on Jeremiah 25:9. That alone convinced me that he doesn’t have any intution for how the language works even on a basic level.
kwrandolph wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:28 pm
Jason Hare wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:01 pmI have spoken.
LOL!!!
You’re right. It’s just risible when someone argues by simply saying “that’s my opinion.” This is all I hear from you in support of your claims. Your feelings. Your claims. No evidence.
kwrandolph wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:28 pm
Jason Hare wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:01 pmתָּשׁ֫וּבוּ is not an imperative. It is a 2mp yiqtol. The imperative form is שׁ֫וּבוּ. It may be a yiqtol used with imperative force (something you’d have to argue for), but it is certainly not an imperative in form.
It is a Yiqtol used with imperative meaning. Look at the context of the verses around it. The other verbs in that verse refer to present actions, not future dependent upon the fulfillment of the first verb.
This is, again, your claim. There’s is no need to read it as an imperative. That’s just your opinion.
Jason Hare wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:01 pmAnd what is your definition of Biblical Hebrew? For me, it is the consonantal text alone. For me, the Masoretic points don’t represent Biblical Hebrew because they frequently deviate in meaning from the consonantal text.
This was answered on the other thread. There’s no need to post the same thing on two different threads.
Jason Hare
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Jonathan Beck
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

Post by Jonathan Beck »

Jason Hare wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 7:20 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:28 pmWho is John Cook that I should listen to him?
You don’t remember him? You are a big part of his reason for leaving B-Hebrew years ago.
He was my professor, one of the pre-eminent Biblical Hebrew linguists in the world. But you won’t listen to him, because his opinion is different from yours. That’s the qualifier. “If it doesn’t match my way of thinking, it’s wrong!”

If you’re up for reading dissertations, and if you can handle it (I couldn’t - way above my pay grade), I recommend a revision of his dissertation, “Time and the Biblical Hebrew Verb: Tense, Aspect, and Modality in Biblical Hebrew”.

Jonathan
Jonathan Beck
Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion, Cincinnati
Interim Pastor, Norwood Grace UMC, Cincinnati, OH.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Lev 26:3-4 — Conditional

Post by Jason Hare »

Jonathan Beck wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 9:01 pm
Jason Hare wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 7:20 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:28 pmWho is John Cook that I should listen to him?
You don’t remember him? You are a big part of his reason for leaving B-Hebrew years ago.
He was my professor, one of the pre-eminent Biblical Hebrew linguists in the world. But you won’t listen to him, because his opinion is different from yours. That’s the qualifier. “If it doesn’t match my way of thinking, it’s wrong!”

If you’re up for reading dissertations, and if you can handle it (I couldn’t - way above my pay grade), I recommend a revision of his dissertation, “Time and the Biblical Hebrew Verb: Tense, Aspect, and Modality in Biblical Hebrew”.

Jonathan
This has also been released as a book and is available on Logos.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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