פִּיפִיּוֹת Isaiah 41:15

Discussion must focus on the Hebrew text (including text criticism) and its ancient translations, not on archaeology, modern language translations, or theological controversies.
Forum rules
Members will observe the rules for respectful discourse at all times!
Please sign all posts with your first and last (family) name.
talmid56
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:02 am
Location: Carlisle, Arkansas, USA

Re: פִּיפִיּוֹת Isaiah 41:15

Postby talmid56 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:11 am

Jason, I'd like to download that JSTOR article on dagesh also. I don't have access to the journal. Thanks.
Dewayne Dulaney
דואיין דוליני

Blog: https://letancientvoicesspeak.wordpress.com/

כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
--(E 84:11) 84:12 תהלים

User avatar
Jason Hare
Posts: 342
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:07 am
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Contact:

Re: פִּיפִיּוֹת Isaiah 41:15

Postby Jason Hare » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:40 am

talmid56 wrote:Jason, I'd like to download that JSTOR article on dagesh also. I don't have access to the journal. Thanks.

I sent you a PM.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

Isaac Fried
Posts: 1471
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: פִּיפִיּוֹת Isaiah 41:15

Postby Isaac Fried » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:54 am

Indeed, there is not much to do about it, but Hebrew has (since luckily no distinction is being made now between a "soft" כ and a ח xet) מֶלֶךְ MELEX, 'king', and correspondingly, a מַלְכָּה MALKAH, 'queen, a female ruler'; and another מַלְכָּהּ MALKAH, 'her king', as in Jos. 6:2
רְאֵה נָתַתִּי בְיָדְךָ אֶת יְרִיחוֹ וְאֶת מַלְכָּהּ
NIV: “See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king"
Ah, and the מַלְכָּה, 'the queen', is said to have מָלְכָה MALXAH, 'reigned', over her מַמְלָכָה MA-MLAXAH, 'kingdom',
and all this because of a devilish dagesh jumping, for some selfish reason of its own, in and out of the letter כ.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Isaac Fried
Posts: 1471
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: פִּיפִיּוֹת Isaiah 41:15

Postby Isaac Fried » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:38 pm

Jason quotes the senior Hebrew mievin laureate, Uzi Ornan, as saying:

חלק ניכר מן הדקדוק המקובל אצלנו אינו דקדוק של שפה שמדברים בה. הוא שייך, למעשה, לעיון פילולוגי ולא בלשני. הדרך לתיאור מורפולוגי מיוסדת על הפונולוגיה ועל שחרור מרבי מתלות בתוך העיון הדקדוקי. על יסוד הבנה בלשנית נכונה של מושג הפונמה יש לבטל תסבוכות המתחפשות ל”כללים“, שאינם אלא המצאת ”יוצאים מן הכלל“ מיותרים.

Then Jason asks:
What do you make of his sentiment?

My answer is that it makes no sense to me whatsoever, possibly because of my inherent tendency to lazy simplistic thinking. I really, really, don't even remotely understand what is meant by
תיאור מורפולוגי מיוסד על הפונולוגיה

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Saboi

Re: פִּיפִיּוֹת Isaiah 41:15

Postby Saboi » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:55 pm

פי־ is a preposition meaning 'on both sides' and found in other words, such as פילגש, פיכל, מפיבשת, אפיקי and פינחס.

Isaac Fried
Posts: 1471
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: פִּיפִיּוֹת Isaiah 41:15

Postby Isaac Fried » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:17 pm

Lee Mcgee says
פי־ is a preposition meaning 'on both sides' and found in other words, such as פילגש, פיכל, מפיבשת, אפיקי and פינחס

You apparently mean the פי PIY of Deut. 21:17
כִּי אֶת הַבְּכֹר בֶּן הַשְּׂנוּאָה יַכִּיר לָתֶת לוֹ פִּי שְׁנַיִם בְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר יִמָּצֵא לוֹ
KJV: "But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath"
NIV: "He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has"
and
Zechariah 13:8
וְהָיָה בְכָל הָאָרֶץ נְאֻם יהוה פִּי שְׁנַיִם בָּהּ יִכָּרְתוּ יִגְוָעוּ וְהַשְּׁלִשִׁית יִוָּתֶר בָּהּ
NIV: "In the whole land, declares the Lord, two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it"

A quick online search failed to reveal to me the prevailing opinion as to the origin of this פִּי PIY, which apparently has nothing to do with פֶּה, 'mouth'.
I see this פִּי as but a variant of בִּי or בִּיא corresponding to the English "be".

However, the פִּיפִיּוֹת as in Ps. 149:6
רוֹמְמוֹת אֵל בִּגְרוֹנָם וְחֶרֶב פִּיפִיּוֹת בְּיָדָם
NIV: "May the praise of God be in their mouths and a double-edged sword in their hands"
is certainly פִּיפִיּוֹת = פֶּה-פֶּה-וֹת
I recall also the new Hebrew word (from Aramaic?) פּוּמְפִּיָה, 'grater', of many open little mouths, many פּוּם, of sharp greedy teeth.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Saboi

Re: פִּיפִיּוֹת Isaiah 41:15

Postby Saboi » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:26 am

פי־ is the same preposition used in both Latin & Greek, ἀμφί, Lat. ambi- Sank. abhitas

פילגש is the very word used in Homeric poetry, παλλακίς "concubine' and the Hebrew reveals that atavism, the word is compound of ἀμφί λέχος > פילגש. ἀμφί/על־פי.

פינחס—Ἀμφινεικής 'contested on both sides'
מפיבשת—Ἀμφιγύεις 'lame on both sides' (2 Samuel 9:13)
אפיקי—ἀμφικίων 'pillars on both sides' (Job 40:18)
פיפיות—ἀμφήκης, ἀμφί ξίφος, 'double-edged'

Isaac Fried
Posts: 1471
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: פִּיפִיּוֹת Isaiah 41:15

Postby Isaac Fried » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:50 pm

Lee Mcgee says
פי־ is the same preposition used in both Latin & Greek, ἀμφί, Lat. ambi- Sank. abhitas

What is interesting in ἀμφί = ambi is the equivalence of φί and bi. It appears that ambi = am-be. Hebrew has now the useful word אמבט AMBAT, 'bath', meaning a pool of water to be (amble in a pleasant ambience) inside.
If פינחס—Ἀμφινεικής 'contested on both sides', I don't know. Biblical names are often enigmatic.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Saboi

Re: פִּיפִיּוֹת Isaiah 41:15

Postby Saboi » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:25 pm

ambience from Latin, ambi- (around) +‎ eō (go) is סביב (על־פי־בוא, ἀμφιβάσκω, ἀμφιβαίνω)

מפיבשת—Ἀμφιγύεις cf. Ἥφαιστος, כושר וחסיס
2 Samuel 4:4 - He fell, became lame and his name was Mephibosheth.
2 Samuel 9:13 - was lame on both his feet (רגליו—ἄρθροις αὐτο)

Isaac Fried
Posts: 1471
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: פִּיפִיּוֹת Isaiah 41:15

Postby Isaac Fried » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:12 pm

Lee Mcgee says
מפיבשת—Ἀμφιγύεις cf. Ἥφαιστος, כושר וחסיס

Seems that at first he was named מְרִיב בָּעַל, possibly by a mother devoted to the בַּעַל BAAL. See 1ch 8:33-34
וְנֵר הוֹלִיד אֶת קִישׁ וְקִישׁ הוֹלִיד אֶת שָׁאוּל וְשָׁאוּל הוֹלִיד אֶת יְהוֹנָתָן וְאֶת מַלְכִּישׁוּעַ וְאֶת אֲבִינָדָב וְאֶת אֶשְׁבָּעַל וּבֶן יְהוֹנָתָן מְרִיב בָּעַל וּמְרִיב בַּעַל הוֹלִיד אֶת מִיכָה
The devotees of the One God of Israel were apparently incensed by this name and they derisively turned בָּעַל into בֹּשֶׁת, 'shame'. Then they turned מְרִיב into מְפִי. But what is this מְפִי? You want to translate it into ἀμφί = ambi, namely, 'ample', or מְפִבֹשֶׁת = 'amply shameful'. Possibly. By this, מְפִי is like מביא, 'brings', or מוֹפִיעַ, 'appears'.
Yet I see another possible insulting hint hidden in the rename by reading מְפִי as מִפִּי, 'from the mouth of', a sly insinuation to the womb. Or, מְפִבֹשֶׁת = מפי-בוֹשת, 'from a shameful (mouth of a) womb'.
See also Judges 6:32
וַיִּקְרָא לוֹ בַיּוֹם הַהוּא יְרֻבַּעַל לֵאמֹר יָרֶב בּוֹ הַבַּעַל כִּי נָתַץ אֶת-מִזְבְּחוֹ
and 2S. 11:21
מִי הִכָּה אֶת אֲבִימֶלֶךְ בֶּן יְרֻבֶּשֶׁת הֲלוֹא אִשָּׁה הִשְׁלִיכָה עָלָיו פֶּלַח רֶכֶב מֵעַל הַחוֹמָה וַיָּמָת בְּתֵבֵץ

Isaac Fried, Boston University


Return to “Hebrew Bible”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests