Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

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ducky
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Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by ducky »

Hi Ste,

I feel the same. It is very nice to converse with you.

Basically, I have nothing to add since I think we agree about almost everything, at least about the basic view of things.

One thing that we could go deeper, is the issue of the relationship between the MSs (LXX, DSS, Samaritan, MT). But that is a too-long conversation and it is better to leave it aside.

Bu the way, what is your background.
You said your perspective reading is a critical one, and you quoted Tov's book, and you are easily caught the formal term that I was speaking about and so on... and so on... So I guess you have some background in that specific era?
David Hunter
Jason Hare
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Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by Jason Hare »

I went back and put everything from Greek into English with a note that I made an edit.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
S_Walch
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Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by S_Walch »

ducky wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:31 pmOne thing that we could go deeper, is the issue of the relationship between the MSs (LXX, DSS, Samaritan, MT). But that is a too-long conversation and it is better to leave it aside.
Haha, very much agreed! People have wrote a few thousand books on the very subject :D
Bu the way, what is your background.
You said your perspective reading is a critical one, and you quoted Tov's book, and you are easily caught the formal term that I was speaking about and so on... and so on... So I guess you have some background in that specific era?
Well I have no formal training in TC, or in Greek or Hebrew (all pretty much self-taught); I do however come from a Christian background (though I no longer go to church, and wouldn't class myself as a Christian either), and I was always fascinated by some of the marginal notes in the Bibles I read which said something along the lines of "other manuscripts read such and such etc.", to which I sought answers as to what these "other manuscripts" were. This led to Greek studies originally (NT focused), but then also to Hebrew studies due to the Dead Sea Scrolls and my fascination with them (hence you'll notice most of my posts will reference the DSS, even if not germane to the discussion!).

That's pretty much it, tbh. I've read more than most on the subject of TC, and am well versed in all its areas (so I'd like to think, anyway!), consistently engaged in my own studies on ancient manuscripts (NT, DSS, and early church father mss). Plus at the moment I've been accepted as a volunteer for the CSNTM in assisting with their verse tagging of NT manuscripts (currently tagged GA 762, GA 770 in their entirety, and am doing Monacensis / X / GA 033 at the moment; I have also added some tags to GA 1, 11, 13, 28, 124, 157, 251, 265, 267, 579, 700, 945, 1010, 1071, 1241, 1424, and 1582), along with passing along any notes I make on the manuscripts to assist the research team.

So yeah, that's it about me. :)
Jason Hare wrote:I went back and put everything from Greek into English with a note that I made an edit.
Thanks, Jason. Saves me having to do it! :D
Ste Walch
Jason Hare
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Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by Jason Hare »

It is odd that תֵּבָה in the story of Noah is κιβωτός [ark] in Greek, whereas the same word is rendered θίβις [basket] in the story of Moses. This destroys the connection that seems to be intentional on behalf of the writer, which is unfortunate.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
kwrandolph
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Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by kwrandolph »

Jason Hare wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:14 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:10 pm Moses apparently thought the names were unimportant in this place in the narrative, especially since he named them later.
Moses?
Of course Moses. He wrote it.
Jason Hare wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:14 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:10 pm The word את is a direct object indicator, not a definite article.

Calling her “a daughter of Levi” is consistent with the practice of calling the people of Israel “sons of Israel” many generations after Israel died.
בת־לוי is definite ("the daughter of Levi"). בת ללוי would be indefinite ("a daughter of Levi"). I did not confuse את for an article.
I don’t know where you get that it must be בת ללוי in order for it to be indefinite, when we have an actual example here את בת לוי from an ancient source where it is indefinite. I haven’t done a study on the indefinite uses of את as a direct object indicator, but I have noticed that they exist.
Jason Hare wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:14 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:10 pm The verb is נצב not יצב.
What verbal stem?
Just as I wrote above. It’s a verb used enough to cover a column and a half in Lisowski’s concordance.
Jason Hare wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:14 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:10 pm Maybe it seems strange because of your expectations that you learned in class. But I learned that some of those expectations are wrong, that they don’t fit the observed patterns. Here in Exodus 2 we have an observed pattern.
I haven't been in a Hebrew class in twenty years (other than ulpan for speaking modern Hebrew, which I took for about six months more than ten years ago). I've got plenty of experience reading the Bible, and my general sense of the Hebrew text comes from reading the Bible. You can't allow that anyone else's experience is worth anything, can you? "This is the way," you seem to say as your mantra.

Jason
Yet you still reference Gesenius and Weingreen, which are the school class materials that I had to reject based on reading the Bible. At this time, you probably know modern Israeli Hebrew better than you know Biblical Hebrew, which has an effect on your understanding of Biblical Hebrew.

At one time I wanted to go to Israel, stay at an ulpan to learn modern Israeli Hebrew, but that fell through. I also wanted to study at a major university, learn all the cognate languages that are required to get an advanced degree in Hebrew, but that fell through too. I now view those as a blessing, as I know only enough Aramaic to read the Biblical sections in Aramaic, and no other cognate language, thus sparing me of cognate language corruption.

The reason I stay on this forum is because I have learned from others—sometimes directly because I made an error, sometimes indirectly because I’ve been challenged by others forcing me to study deeper. No, I don’t know everything.

Karl W. Randolph.
kwrandolph
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Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by kwrandolph »

Jason Hare wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:07 pm It is odd that תֵּבָה in the story of Noah is κιβωτός [ark] in Greek, whereas the same word is rendered θίβις [basket] in the story of Moses. This destroys the connection that seems to be intentional on behalf of the writer, which is unfortunate.
Not necessarily. There are plenty of cases where one word in one language is rendered by two or more words in another language, and visa versa. This could be showing one of the limits of translation.

Or it could be a case of simple mistranslation.

These are why translations don’t count as evidence on this forum.

Karl W. Randolph.
Jason Hare
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Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by Jason Hare »

kwrandolph wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:33 pm Of course Moses. He wrote it.
That's a faith statement that I'm not interested in engaging.
kwrandolph wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:33 pm I don’t know where you get that it must be בת ללוי in order for it to be indefinite, when we have an actual example here את בת לוי from an ancient source where it is indefinite. I haven’t done a study on the indefinite uses of את as a direct object indicator, but I have noticed that they exist.
It's called the lamed of possession (similar to the dative of possession in both Greek and Latin). It's a common use of the lamed preposition, and it is used for indefinite possession.
kwrandolph wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:33 pm Just as I wrote above. It’s a verb used enough to cover a column and a half in Lisowski’s concordance.
I asked what stem it is (niphal, hiphil, etc.), not what root it is. I know that נצ״ב exists as a root. That wasn't the question.
kwrandolph wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:33 pm Yet you still reference Gesenius and Weingreen, which are the school class materials that I had to reject based on reading the Bible. At this time, you probably know modern Israeli Hebrew better than you know Biblical Hebrew, which has an effect on your understanding of Biblical Hebrew.

At one time I wanted to go to Israel, stay at an ulpan to learn modern Israeli Hebrew, but that fell through. I also wanted to study at a major university, learn all the cognate languages that are required to get an advanced degree in Hebrew, but that fell through too. I now view those as a blessing, as I know only enough Aramaic to read the Biblical sections in Aramaic, and no other cognate language, thus sparing me of cognate language corruption.

The reason I stay on this forum is because I have learned from others—sometimes directly because I made an error, sometimes indirectly because I’ve been challenged by others forcing me to study deeper. No, I don’t know everything.
Do you think your lack of engagement in other languages or in other periods of Hebrew helps you maintain a more fundamentalist outlook on Scripture (Mosaic authorship, literal Flood of Noah, literal Tower of Babel, Plenary Inspiration, etc.)? Do you not think you could have maintained your faith positions if you had gone further in your pursuit of wider knowledge? To what extent do you think it is in a person's favor that he/she avoid seeking more education and experience in fields relating to general knowledge and biblical languages (more specifically)?
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
kwrandolph
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Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by kwrandolph »

Jason Hare wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:50 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:33 pm Of course Moses. He wrote it.
That's a faith statement that I'm not interested in engaging.
This is a historical question. Whether you trust the history or not is your choice.
Jason Hare wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:50 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:33 pm I don’t know where you get that it must be בת ללוי in order for it to be indefinite, when we have an actual example here את בת לוי from an ancient source where it is indefinite. I haven’t done a study on the indefinite uses of את as a direct object indicator, but I have noticed that they exist.
It's called the lamed of possession (similar to the dative of possession in both Greek and Latin). It's a common use of the lamed preposition, and it is used for indefinite possession.
That was not my question. My question is why you don’t accept את בת לוי as an indefinite, but insist that the indefinite must be expressed as בת ללוי?
Jason Hare wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:50 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:33 pm Just as I wrote above. It’s a verb used enough to cover a column and a half in Lisowski’s concordance.
I asked what stem it is (niphal, hiphil, etc.), not what root it is. I know that נצ״ב exists as a root. That wasn't the question.
This is the first time I’ve seen “stem” used to refer to binyan. Every other time I’ve seen it used, was to refer to “root”, as a synonym thereof.

The binyan is hitpael.
Jason Hare wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:50 pm
kwrandolph wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:33 pm Yet you still reference Gesenius and Weingreen, which are the school class materials that I had to reject based on reading the Bible. At this time, you probably know modern Israeli Hebrew better than you know Biblical Hebrew, which has an effect on your understanding of Biblical Hebrew.

At one time I wanted to go to Israel, stay at an ulpan to learn modern Israeli Hebrew, but that fell through. I also wanted to study at a major university, learn all the cognate languages that are required to get an advanced degree in Hebrew, but that fell through too. I now view those as a blessing, as I know only enough Aramaic to read the Biblical sections in Aramaic, and no other cognate language, thus sparing me of cognate language corruption.

The reason I stay on this forum is because I have learned from others—sometimes directly because I made an error, sometimes indirectly because I’ve been challenged by others forcing me to study deeper. No, I don’t know everything.
Do you think your lack of engagement in other languages or in other periods of Hebrew helps you maintain a more fundamentalist outlook on Scripture (Mosaic authorship, literal Flood of Noah, literal Tower of Babel, Plenary Inspiration, etc.)? Do you not think you could have maintained your faith positions if you had gone further in your pursuit of wider knowledge?
Yes. My “faith positions” have nothing to do with language, but much to do with history. Both ancient and modern (last few centuries) history. I have studied history enough from multiple sources to know that ancient history is a mess, especially ancient Egyptian history. For example, I’ve learned of three different dates for Raamses II “the great”—13the century BC, tenth century BC and seventh century BC. Which one is correct? I think that those who have presented the seventh century BC date have presented the strongest argument. That’s just one example.

What about Ugaritic, when was it written? The date I’ve seen connects it to the date of Raamses II.

As for modern history, I’ve studied the history and ideation of the Documentary Hypotheses, and reject their conclusions as being unscientific (according to the definition of science I was taught at state universities and secular textbooks), rather merely the attack of one religion against another. It’s also an unhistorical theory.
Jason Hare wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:50 pmTo what extent do you think it is in a person's favor that he/she avoid seeking more education and experience in fields relating to general knowledge and biblical languages (more specifically)?
The question is not more knowledge per se, rather specific knowledge.

It is well known that the more one knows of cognate languages, the more difficult it is to keep a single language distinct in one’s mind. The closer the cognate, the harder it is. So by limiting my exposure to cognate languages, including later forms of Hebrew, the more I spare myself from cognate language corruption and the better I can analyze Biblical Hebrew itself.

I have noticed that problem on this forum, that those who live in Israel have a harder time keeping their understanding of Biblical Hebrew unaffected by modern Israeli Hebrew, and the the more formulaic is their understanding of Biblical Hebrew.

As for Biblical languages: in the Old Testament, there are only two—Biblical Hebrew and a smattering of Aramaic. For the New Testament, only one—koiné Greek. The more one studies, learns about, these languages, the better one can understand the Bible.

Karl W. Randolph.
ducky
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Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by ducky »

Hi Karl,

I saw before that you said that the root is נצב...
Not that it matters, but I wanted to ask you why do you call it נצב and not יצב?
After all, when we look at the verbs, in Hitpael, when this first root-letter letter is exposed, there is only התיצב but never התנצב.

And now that I see your comment about this תתצב is hitpael, then this question comes to me even harder. Because every hitpael in the bible uses יצב as its root.
But now you want to call it from נצב.

and if it is hitpael, when is the letter נ=N?
wasn't it supposed to be תתנצב?
David Hunter
Jason Hare
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Re: Exodus 2 - Strange Occurrences

Post by Jason Hare »

ducky wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:52 pm and if it is hitpael, when is the letter נ=N?
wasn't it supposed to be תתנצב?
Hence, my question about which stem is in question. There are no examples of נצב in the hitpael in the Bible. It appears in the niphal (51 times), hiphil (21 times), and hufal (2 times).
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
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