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Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:51 pm
by Isaac Fried
So is the right reading of the name
בָּשְׂמַת Bosmat or Basmat? And
צָרְפַת, is it Tsorfat or Tsarfat?
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:33 pm
by Jason Hare
Isaac,
Isaac Fried wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:51 pm
So is the right reading of the name
בָּשְׂמַת Bosmat or Basmat? And
צָרְפַת, is it Tsorfat or Tsarfat?
David (
@ducky) has already provided the answer to this question:
ducky wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:32 pm
In words like צרפת or בשמת the Sheva is mobile.
If the sheva is mobile (שווא נע), then the vowel before it is long (קמץ) and not short (קמץ קטן). Thus, both of these are pronounced with
ā in the first syllable:
צָֽרְפַת Ṣārəp̄aṯ (Tsar⁽ᵊ⁾fat) and
בָּֽשְׂמַת Bāśəmaṯ (Bas⁽ᵊ⁾mat).
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:43 pm
by Isaac Fried
So, if I correctly understand it the reading of the qamatz as an A or as an O depends on the nature of the following schwa. Since I don't detect any mobility in the schwa of
צָרְפַת the way I (and many more) pronounce it, should I not pronounce it
צוֹרְפָת with the stress on the
פָ, as opposed to
צָרְֶפַת with a stress on the
רְֶ?
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:49 am
by Jason Hare
Isaac Fried wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:43 pm
So, if I correctly understand it the reading of the qamatz as an A or as an O depends on the nature of the following schwa. Since I don't detect any mobility in the schwa of
צָרְפַת the way I (and many more) pronounce it, should I not pronounce it
צוֹרְפָת with the stress on the
פָ, as opposed to
צָרְֶפַת with a stress on the
רְֶ?
The fact that there is no dagesh in the peh shows that it is sheva mobile. If it were silent, the peh would have a dagesh (because the sheva would be closing the previous syllable). I think it's clear that you cannot put word stress on a sheva. The word is tsa-re-FAT, with the "e" being barely audible (or not even at all).
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:50 am
by Isaac Fried
It is still not clear to me what it means "it is sheva mobile". Isn't it so that if I move it, then it is "mobile", but if I skip it (as I and many do) then it is "silent"? Should I, wanting to adhere to the rules, pronounce it
צָרְפַּת with a fast schwa? Or is the nature of the schwa a-priori fixed by the qamatz and the dageshless פַ ?
And if "the "e" being barely audible (or not even at all)", then how can it be categorized as a schwa "mobile"?
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:45 pm
by Jason Hare
A sheva mobile is generally in a syllable that had a full vowel that was at some point reduced. It happens a lot. So, שמר is sha|már. When the feminine ending (originally, -àt) was added, it was sha|má|rat. The final -t softened to become -h (a vowel marker), and the middle syllable reduced to sheva. It is sha|mə|rá today. It's the difference between ḥoḵ|mâ "wisdom" (silent sheva closing the first syllable) and ḥā|ḵə|mấ "she was wise" (mobile sheva opening the next syllable, representing a reduced vowel: ḥa|ḵá|mat > ḥa|ḵə|má > ḥā|ḵə|mấ).
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:19 pm
by Isaac Fried
OK, I think I more or less understand it now. The schwa is not "mobile" because the speaker moves it as he speaks. The mobility of the schwa is rather a genetic property inherent in it, due to it "descending" from an ancestral vowel. For instance
שָמַר versus
שָמְרָה (not *
שָמַרָה).
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:25 pm
by Jason Hare
Isaac Fried wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:19 pm
OK, I think I more or less understand it now. The schwa is not "mobile" because the speaker moves it as he speaks. The mobility of the schwa is rather a genetic property inherent in it, due to it "descending" from an ancestral vowel. For instance
שָמַר versus
שָמְרָה (not *
שָמַרָה).
Yes, that's essentially what it means. It means that it doesn't represent a
closed syllable. If the syllable is closed, then the sheva is silent (not mobile). Silent sheva will follow short vowels when the syllable is unstressed (
חֻפְשָׁה ḥup̄šâ). Also, if there are two shevas in a row, the first is always silent, and the second is always mobile (
יִשְׁמְרוּ yišmərû). [In this case, it is also representing a reduced vowel, since the original form was yišmṓrû [yishMOru], which was reduced.]
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:58 pm
by Jemoh66
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:45 pm
A sheva mobile is generally in a syllable that had a full vowel that was at some point reduced. It happens a lot. So, שמר is sha|már. When the feminine ending (originally, -àt) was added, it was sha|má|rat. The final -t softened to become -h (a vowel marker), and the middle syllable reduced to sheva. It is sha|mə|rá today. It's the difference between ḥoḵ|mâ "wisdom" (silent sheva closing the first syllable) and ḥā|ḵə|mấ "she was wise" (mobile sheva opening the next syllable, representing a reduced vowel: ḥa|ḵá|mat > ḥa|ḵə|má > ḥā|ḵə|mấ).
That’s really good stuff Jason!
It’s really nothing different than what happens in English.
Banana > b’|næ|nə
aɪ wʌnə teɪk homə dəplomə (Doris Day, Teachers Pet)
Moveable schwa
Botany > botanical
Re: The name מָחֲלַת of Gen. 28:9
Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:08 am
by Isaac Fried
Jason wrote
It's the difference between ḥoḵ|mâ "wisdom" (silent sheva closing the first syllable) and ḥā|ḵə|mấ "she was wise" (mobile sheva opening the next syllable, representing a reduced vowel: ḥa|ḵá|mat > ḥa|ḵə|má > ḥā|ḵə|mấ).
They are written the same way:
חָכְמָה, 'She became wise'
חָכְמָה, 'Knowledge'
but have a different genealogy, leading to different readings?
Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com