Hi Jason,
The fact that people write it or speak it, doesn't make it right.
I can think of other common mistakes that people do (like the popular במידה ו) and that would mean nothing but a mistake.
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:28 pm
בין שופטי השלום שקודמו למחוזי נמצאת ד"ר דפנה אבניאלי, הנחשבת לשופטת מתוקשרת יחסית, שעוסקת בעיקר בתיקי בנקאות אך מדי פעם התפרסמה גם בנושא חסינות שופטים,
הנושא עליו כתבה את עבודת הדוקטורט שלה.
The same structure (the dropping of the relative pronoun) is in question whether the preposition is על or ב. The above could have been written as הנושא אשר כתבה עליו וכו׳, could it not?
Of course that it could.
And that would be the right way.
Now check what you wrote and what you did.
The sentence in your example which you are talking about is without the relative pronoun. But when you gave your comment about it (of switching the order of words) you suddenly added the relative pronoun.
And you know Why you did it?
Because you couldn't write it without the relative pronoun.
And that is strange, don't you think?
How is it that you cannot switch the two words?
It was written in your example:
הנושא עליו כתבה
Why didn't you just write: הנושא כתבה עליו?
After all, this is the bible's order of words.
(In these kinds of sentences, first the verb and then the preposition).
But you didn't write that, because you don't speak like that, and you don't teach others like that.
So how is it that you approve the opposite order of words (than the one in the bible: הנושא עליו כתבה) while you reject the same order of words that is in the bible (הנושא כתבה עליו)?
Not to mention, that the noun is definite, and so, also the Bible would tend to use the relative pronoun anyway.
So you try to defend the הנושא עליו כתבה with wrong things:
1. The noun is definite, and so, even the bible would usually use a relative pronoun.
(So why here it is okay to drop it?).
2. The Biblical order of words is verb+preposition.
But you cannot use it in this sentence that you try to defend.
I mean: you won't say: הנושא כתבה עליו, right?
3. The fact that you cannot switch the עליו כתבה to כתבה עליו says it all. Because How is it that you cannot use it in the order that we see in the bible, But you CAN use it in the opposite order (that the bible doesn't use). Strange.
******
In short, the right way to use it if we want to keep this order of words is by adding the relative pronoun.
הנושא שעליו כתבה
הנושא אשר עליו כתבה
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:28 pm
By the same right, הלא זה צום אבחרהו could have become הלא זה הצום בו אבחר, no? As long as the object isn't attached as a suffix, it could appear within the prepositional phrase and push the relative pronoun out even if the head noun is definite. That's the structure that I'm specifically thinking of. Granted, with the definite head noun, it would not appear with the attached suffix without something intervening (preferably אשר) to embed it.
The main reason that I put this sentence in the Bible and in the DSS is to show the conditions that made the change.
Definite Article = Relative Pronoun (Like DSS)
Undefined = No Relative Pronoun (Like Isa.)
What you are suggesting above is a definite article = no relative pronoun.
(But there are exceptions like that also).
But the main point is the order of words.
If you break the אבחרהו to two words, then the order would be אבחר בו
I would write tomorrow some verses with and without the relative pronoun so you can see the pattern.
*****
As for the אשר עליו כתבה
This form is also switched, but that would be fair.
(Even though the Bible also prefers the verb first).
Because now, when we have the relative pronoun, it is like that this part of the sentence has a "father", and so we can play inside it without feeling "bad" in our ears. What we cannot do when the relative pronoun is dropped.