מְשָׁרַת vs. מְשָׁרֶתֶת

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Isaac Fried
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Re: מְשָׁרַת vs. מְשָׁרֶתֶת

Post by Isaac Fried »

Jason writes
I can't understand why you keep posting things like this. There is nothing helpful to anyone's understanding that can be garnered by claiming that מ means the performer of the act. That means nothing. Do you really think that a prefixed mem means מי and that the participle actually means מי ששירת "the one who served"?
"That means nothing"? It means everything. What otherwise does the מ stand for?
Also, "anyone's understanding" is not for us to decide.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
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Jason Hare
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Re: מְשָׁרַת vs. מְשָׁרֶתֶת

Post by Jason Hare »

Isaac Fried wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:19 pm Jason writes
I can't understand why you keep posting things like this. There is nothing helpful to anyone's understanding that can be garnered by claiming that מ means the performer of the act. That means nothing. Do you really think that a prefixed mem means מי and that the participle actually means מי ששירת "the one who served"?
"That means nothing"? It means everything. What otherwise does the מ stand for?
Also, "anyone's understanding" is not for us to decide.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Prefixed mem is used to form the participle in all binyanim besides qal and niphal. It doesn't have meaning. It creates a form.
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Isaac Fried
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Re: מְשָׁרַת vs. מְשָׁרֶתֶת

Post by Isaac Fried »

Jason writes
Prefixed mem is used to form the participle in all binyanim besides qal and niphal.
How can a "prefixed" Hebrew mem be "used" to "form" an English "participle"?
It doesn't have meaning. It creates a form.
No. This can not be. Hebrew is not made up of "created forms" devoid of meaning.

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Jason Hare
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Re: מְשָׁרַת vs. מְשָׁרֶתֶת

Post by Jason Hare »

Isaac Fried wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:21 am Jason writes
Prefixed mem is used to form the participle in all binyanim besides qal and niphal.
How can a "prefixed" Hebrew mem be "used" to "form" an English "participle"?
Does English have a qal and niphal, or should it have been clear to everyone that I was talking about Hebrew participles? Hmm...
Isaac Fried wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:21 am
It doesn't have meaning. It creates a form.
No. This can not be. Hebrew is not made up of "created forms" devoid of meaning.
I have my doubts as to whether you are well trained in languages and linguistics. The fact that you think Hebrew is something other than a human language indicates that you don't have enough insight into the functioning of languages to make these types of judgments.
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Re: מְשָׁרַת vs. מְשָׁרֶתֶת

Post by Jason Hare »

From a book that I'm currently reading:

למחרת, בשעה מאוחרת אחרי־הצהריים, מצאה את עצמה חוצה את רחוב יפו במכונית החדישה שלה, עולה ואחר־כך יורדת ברחוב שטראוס צפונה.‏
The next day, at a late afternoon hour, she found herself crossing Jaffa Street in a her newer-model car, going up and then afterward going down on Strauss Street toward the north.

The words here in red are all participles (by chance, they are all in the qal). It is because of the lack of an actual present tense that Hebrew uses the participle both as a circumstantial participle and as a present tense form of sorts. Notice that a real present tense would agree with its subject in person (first-, second-, or third-) in addition to gender and number. Participles, however, agree only in gender and number (and, in other languages, in case [such as nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, and ablative). This doesn't change the fact that we are looking at participles, and participles outside of the qal and niphal and formed with a mem prefix.

It could just as easily have said:

היא מצאה את עצמה מדברת על דברים שהיא הבטיחה לבעלה לא להזכיר.‏
(participle in the piel)

or:

היא מצאה את עצמה משלימה את המשפטים שלו.‏
(participle in hiphil)
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Re: מְשָׁרַת vs. מְשָׁרֶתֶת

Post by Jason Hare »

Isaac,

I'm sure that you could read through any introductory textbook on biblical Hebrew within a week and have a good understanding of the grammar of the language. Choose one and just read. Basics of Biblical Hebrew (Pratico & Van Pelt), Learning Biblical Hebrew (Kutz & Josberger), Beginning Biblical Hebrew (Cook & Holmstedt)... just choose one and read. Much of what you object to is covered in basic textbooks and should be well-known by anyone who professes to be any kind of authority on the biblical language.

If you're really feeling up to it, read through A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew (Joüon & Muraoka) or Gesenius's grammar. That's where all the meat is!

Jason
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Isaac Fried
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Re: מְשָׁרַת vs. מְשָׁרֶתֶת

Post by Isaac Fried »

Jason writes
The fact that you think Hebrew is something other than a human language indicates that you don't have enough insight into the functioning of languages to make these types of judgments.
We are not grandly philosophising here about the nature of the "human language". The only question before us here is what is the meaning of the Hebrew word מְשָׁרַת and what is the function of the letter מ of it added to the root שׁרת, in Hebrew. In Hebrew.

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Re: מְשָׁרַת vs. מְשָׁרֶתֶת

Post by Jason Hare »

It serves to form a participle. In Hebrew.
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Isaac Fried
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Re: מְשָׁרַת vs. מְשָׁרֶתֶת

Post by Isaac Fried »

Jason writes
It serves to form a participle. In Hebrew.
"participle" is not Hebrew and it means nothing. The letter mem is not placed there by the ancient Hebrews to "serve to form a participle".

Isaac Fried, Boston University
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Last edited by Isaac Fried on Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: מְשָׁרַת vs. מְשָׁרֶתֶת

Post by Jason Hare »

«"Dog" is not Hebrew, so it means nothing. Only Hebrew words have meaning.»

Is that your claim, Isaac?

"Participle" certainly has meaning. It is absurd of you to claim otherwise. Patently absurd. Well, since "absurd" isn't Hebrew, it might not have meaning either. Oh, I'm using a lot of meaningless words in this reply.

אה... זה יותר טוב. עכשיו למילים שלי יש משמעות ותוכן. הייתי צריך לעבור לעברית מזמן כדי לא לכתוב לך שטויות. אני רק מקווה שתסלח לי על הבורות.‏
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