kwrandolph wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:56 pm
All we know for certain is that Mishnaic Hebrew, and its daughters of Tiberian and modern Israeli Hebrews, are radically different from Biblical Hebrew.
If someone knows biblical Hebrew well, I don't think they're "radically" different. I simply don't agree.
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:56 pm
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:10 pm
To be clear,
מְשָׁרַת məšāraṯ is feminine singular (an alternative of
מְשָׁרֶ֫תֶת), and
מְשָׁרֵת məšārēṯ is masculine singular.
The only way you think that is because of the Masoretic points. Without the Masoretic points, there’s no evidence whatsoever that it is a feminine adjective.
No. The whole point of this thread was that the form of the word seemed odd to me. It should be a feminine participle
no matter how the Masoretes pointed it. It has to be feminine because the noun placed with it is feminine (Avishag). Obviously.
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:56 pm
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:10 pm
Ducky gave the correct and obvious explanation (
məšāraṯ ← *
məšāraṯt). It is simply the form that we would get if the segolate had not been resolved. The same as the few instances of
יֹלַדְתְּ that we see in the Bible instead of
יֹלֶ֫דֶת (cf. Gen 16.11; Judg 13.5,7),
Those examples in Genesis and Judges are Qatal Qal verbs, not participles.
Only to you. To the rest of the world, they are participles. Your idiosyncrasies are leading you to false conclusions again.
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:56 pm
Nope. Every time you find יולדה it refers to the action of giving birth, while the four times יולדת us used, it refers to the birth mother, the woman who gave birth.
Isaiah 13:8b (NRSV)
Pangs and agony will seize them;
they will be in anguish
like a woman in labor.
Isaiah 21:3b (NRSV)
pangs have seized me,
like the pangs of
a woman in labor;
Every time that I read the verses with
יולדה, I see them referring to a woman in labor pangs, not to "the action of giving birth" (which would be
לֵדָה, another of those pesky שמות פעולה that I mentioned previously, an alternative form of the infinitive construct in the Bible). Both
יולדת and
יולדה refer to the woman who is giving birth.
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:56 pm
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:10 pm
and we shouldn't forget that we find other alternative qal participles in the feminine singular (
שֹֽׁפְטָה for
שֹׁפֶ֫טֶת
I don’t know what you’re trying to say here, as there’s no feminine participle שפטת in Tanakh. The Qatal feminine verb שפטה is found, e.g. Judges 4:4.
I was talking about the forms that a word can appear in. I know that
שֹׁפֶ֫טֶת doesn't exist in the Bible, but that's because the fs participle of this word is only used ONCE in the biblical text. Had it been used more, it could have appeared both as
שֹׁפֶ֫טֶת and as
שֹׁפְטָה. The point is that these are alternative forms for the same thing. Why do I feel like you're intentionally misunderstanding?
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:56 pm
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:10 pm
and
אֹֽכְלָה for
אֹכֶ֫לֶת [
אוֹכֵלָה in Isa 29.6 and others]).
The adjective אוכלה is found three times, each time describing fire Isaiah 29:6, 30:30 and 33:14.
The noun אכלה refers to food, what is eaten. The same consonantal form is found as a verb. I didn’t analyze all the places where it is found in this answer to you.
A quick spot check of אכלת found only verbs, no participles.
Your quick spot checks are faulty.
Fire is described with the fs participle
אֹכֶ֫לֶת in Exodus 24:17:
Exodus 24:17
וּמַרְאֵה֙ כְּבֹ֣וד יְהוָ֔ה כְּאֵ֥שׁ אֹכֶ֖לֶת בְּרֹ֣אשׁ הָהָ֑ר לְעֵינֵ֖י בְּנֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃
This should be compared to the following:
Deuteronomy 9:3
וְיָדַעְתָּ֣ הַיּ֗וֹם כִּי֩ יְהוָ֨ה אֱלֹהֶ֜יךָ הֽוּא־הָעֹבֵ֤ר לְפָנֶ֙יךָ֙ אֵ֣שׁ אֹֽכְלָ֔ה ה֧וּא יַשְׁמִידֵ֛ם וְה֥וּא יַכְנִיעֵ֖ם לְפָנֶ֑יךָ וְהֽוֹרַשְׁתָּ֤ם וְהַֽאַבַדְתָּם֙ מַהֵ֔ר כַּאֲשֶׁ֛ר דִּבֶּ֥ר יְהוָ֖ה לָֽךְ׃
Both forms are participles.
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:56 pm
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:10 pm
We have to think of
מְשָׁרַת simply as an alternative form for
מְשָׁרֶ֫תֶת with the resolution of the consonant cluster by assimilation rather than by inserting the segols. Any argument to the contrary is clearly absurd.
You have not given a good argument to back up your claim of consonant cluster assimilation. Hence my questions still stand.
What I'm consistently getting is that you don't now how to recognize a participle in Hebrew.
Attachment: לידה in the lexicon HALOT. This is the word for
the act of giving birth.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.