Is there a prophetic imperfect and not just a prophetic perfect? e.g. Yayikra in Isaiah 9:5 ?

[ralph]

Is there a prophetic imperfect and not just a prophetic perfect? e.g. Yayikra in Isaiah 9:5/9:6 ?

https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1009.htm

There Yayikra is translated "and his name is called "

Rather than like "And his name was called"

[Jason Hare]

"Is translated" assumes that there is a standard translation. What translation are you using?

I'd be more interested in why ויקרא is being translated into the English passive. It literally says "and he called," not "and he was called." That is, unless you take it as וַיִּקָּרֵא vayyiqqārēʾ (niphal) rather than as וַיִּקְרָא vayyiqrāʾ (qal).

[ducky]

Most commentaries understand only שר שלום as the boy's name.
while the other three names are titles of God.

So the ויקרא is that God will call him שר שלום.

And each title is seen as related to God in other cases.
For example,
פלא יועץ is like in 28:29 when God הפלא עצה
אל גבור is like 10:21 when God is called אל גבור
and so on...

***
Some say that all of the names are the titles of God, (also שר שלום) and then, the boy's name is not even written.
And so, the ויקרא שמו is not about giving a name at all, but it is about choosing him and make him closer and giving him dignity -- something like Isa. 43:1 קראתי בשמך לי אתה.
So it is said that a boy will be born, and God will choose him as his king and raise his name.

*************
Some say that all of the names belong to the boy.
(and also here, they find connections)
like that אל גבור can be parallel to חזקיהו (as the same meaning)
and that אבי עד can represent the King who sits on the eternal kingdom of David,
Or that Hezekiyahu's mother is called אבי בת זכריה (as the אבי עד is linked to his mother's name).

****
And there are more views on how to read that verse (such as a sentence for example), and so on.

**
I like the first one and the second one because I do think that it talks about God "connecting" with the boy - whether we see it as giving him the name (which is a symbol of destiny/role) or by choosing him.

[ralph]

Thanks. I'm really not asking about Isaiah 9:6 and it's grammatical structure or who it's talking about e.t.c I'm not asking about that.

I'm asking specifically about the imperfect with vav with patach. And i'm asking if there are other places in tanach with the imperfect with vav and patach prefix, but that is translated in the present or future. You are one of the best people to ask on this subject so i'm really interested in your response on this.

[Jason Hare]

Again, though, Ralph... "is translated" by whom? Do you have a specific translation in mind? I imagine that different translators would differ in how they approach these types of things.

[ducky]

Now I get you.
I was confusing you. I don't know why I wrote in my above comment this verb as future (and the other verb too).
I was just out of focus for some reason.

The ויקרא refers to past.

[kwrandolph]

Is there a prophetic imperfect and not just a prophetic perfect? e.g. Yayikra in Isaiah 9:5/9:6 ?

This question is based on the erroneous belief that Biblical Hebrew has tenses. It doesn’t. Therefore the ויקרא can refer to a future event. I read it as a niphal.

As for שם, it doesn’t necessarily refer to a person’s given name, rather sometimes used for “attributes”. “reputation” or similar ideas.

Karl W. Randolph.

[ralph]

Is there a prophetic imperfect and not just a prophetic perfect? e.g. Yayikra in Isaiah 9:5/9:6 ?

This question is based on the erroneous belief that Biblical Hebrew has tenses. It doesn’t. Therefore the ויקרא can refer to a future event. I read it as a niphal.

This thread is written basically assuming what academics would say is true of biblical hebrew, rather than your theories that few accept. Please don't turn this thread into a discussion regarding your fringe theories. This can be avoided if you just keep your fringe theories aside, as other people don't accept the assumptions that you make. Or to put it another way, academics and myself and most here, accept certain things that you don't.

[kwrandolph]

Is there a prophetic imperfect and not just a prophetic perfect? e.g. Yayikra in Isaiah 9:5/9:6 ?

This question is based on the erroneous belief that Biblical Hebrew has tenses. It doesn’t. Therefore the ויקרא can refer to a future event. I read it as a niphal.

This thread is written basically assuming what academics would say is true of biblical hebrew, rather than your theories that few accept. Please don't turn this thread into a discussion regarding your fringe theories. This can be avoided if you just keep your fringe theories aside, as other people don't accept the assumptions that you make. Or to put it another way, academics and myself and most here, accept certain things that you don't.

First of all, I was not the first to come to “my theory” rather that honor goes to the late Dr. Diethelm Michel who taught at the University of Mainz in Germany. That I came to basically the same conclusion independently of him gives me more confidence that he was, and now I am, on the right track. Therefore it’s wrong to attribute the conclusion to me. It’s Dr. Michel’s conclusions.

I started my academic studies in the hard sciences, in particular chemistry and biology. There I was taught that one person who is correct trumps the rest of the world if the rest of the world is incorrect. In that case, it’s the rest of the world that holds the “fringe theory”, not the one who is correct.

By the way, what I state are not my assumptions, rather conclusions based on my study of Tanakh. But if you want to follow others who start with assumptions, that’s your choice. I’m not stopping you.

Karl W. Randolph.

[ralph]

........

well putting aside your theories, or putting the arguably similar theories of a long since dead professor in europe whose work is not in English aside,

you do funnily enough mention something here which would address my question very well viewtopic.php?t=22393

Proverbs 31:10–31 which has the vav conversive so, wayiktol form, translated as present.

Proverbs 31:13 וַתַּעַשׂ, בְּחֵפֶץ כַּפֶּיהָ..... (....and works willingly with her hands)
Proberts 31:14 מִמֶּרְחָק, תָּבִיא לַחְמָהּ..... (...she brings her food from afar)

examples also in v15, v16, v17

Note that that thread also mentions a guy called John Cook https://biblingo.org/blog/the-biblical- ... john-cook/ who mentions that this study is an area where research is still being done and much needs to be done. He has a long article here https://ancienthebrewgrammar.files.word ... uwdiss.pdf though i'm not sure if he touches on this.