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Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:46 am
Karl,
Just for interest, the Septuagint translates Isaiah 62:5 as a young man will marry a virgin.
Is this under the assumption that παρθένος necessarily meant “virgin.” I ask because of Genesis 34.
Genesis 34:2
Shechem son of Hamor the Hivite, chief of the country, saw her [Dinah], and took her and lay with her by force. (njps)
He lay with her by force—he raped her. Yet, after this happened, she was still called a παρθένος (parthenos) in the very next verse in the Septuagint (after her rape).
Genesis 34:3
Being strongly drawn to Dinah daughter of Jacob, and in love with the maiden (ἠγάπησεν τὴν παρθένον [lxx]), he spoke to the maiden tenderly (ἐλάλησεν κατὰ τὴν διάνοιαν τῆς παρθένου αὐτῇ [lxx]). (njps)
In earlier Greek, παρθένος was simply a synonym of κόρη, meaning “girl.” It seems to me that there were times in the Septuagint, which was written some 200 years or more before the New Testament, in which it held that meaning and hadn’t yet come to mean “virgin” in the way that it was in Matthew’s gospel.
Jason,
I am not saying the word in Greek meant "virgin." I am just working with what he accepts as a fact and asking if he agrees with the Septuagint. I don't want to debate every word. I am just curious how he deals with that.
Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:54 pm
Jason,
I am not saying the word in Greek meant "virgin." I am just working with what he accepts as a fact and asking if he agrees with the Septuagint. I don't want to debate every word. I am just curious how he deals with that.
Fair enough. Was just providing information.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel The Hebrew Café יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Jason,
There are a few quotes that people say the word betula can't mean virgin in Hebrew because of what the quote says, but if you look them up in the Septuagint, it also says "parthenos" which they believe is "virgin." I think they notice problems in Biblical Hebrew, but they don't seem to notice that the Greek translation says the same thing. I assume in those verses, they would say that it doesn't matter for some reason. I have never heard anyone explain that situation because no one seems to notice or care.
Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:29 pm
Jason,
There are a few quotes that people say the word betula can't mean virgin in Hebrew because of what the quote says, but if you look them up in the Septuagint, it also says "parthenos" which they believe is "virgin." I think they notice problems in Biblical Hebrew, but they don't seem to notice that the Greek translation says the same thing. I assume in those verses, they would say that it doesn't matter for some reason. I have never heard anyone explain that situation because no one seems to notice or care.
I’m with you in that concern.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel The Hebrew Café יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:38 amDo I ever quote from Gesenius’s lexicon or from BDB? Yes, I refer to Gesenius’s grammar, but not his lexicon. The dictionaries that I quote from are Ludwig Koehler et alii’s The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (Leiden: Brill, 1994–2000) and David J. A. Clines’s (ed.) The Dictionary of Classical Hebrew (Sheffield, England: Sheffield Academic Press, 1993–2011).
Is the the same David J.A. Clines who had a recent article in Academia.edu that had a list of strange, a couple of even bizarre, definitions for Biblical Hebrew words? If this is an example of the type of lexicography he does, what is his dictionary like? Can I trust it?
What I find for Köhler is that there’s nary a hint that he disagreed with what had become the majority teaching in European universities of his time.
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:38 amYou’re saying that people have a bias against Christianity that makes them take a position other than the one that you take on the meaning of the word עַלְמָה. That is really odd.
Why is that odd? People do that sort of thing all the time. So why not also here?
What I find odd is that you focus on this action, while ignoring the linguistic evidence.
kwrandolph wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:59 am
What I find odd is that you focus on this action, while ignoring the linguistic evidence.
Please, share it with me. I don’t know what linguistic evidence you’re referring to. If you demonstrate that בְּתוּלָה doesn’t mean virgo intacta (and Isaiah 62:5 was not a great attempt at proving that), it does not mean by default that עַלְמָה takes on that meaning. It could be that there is no Hebrew word that bears that meaning per se. You’d need to demonstrate two parts: (1) that בְּתוּלָה doesn’t mean “virgin” when used non-metaphorically; and, (2) that עַלְמָה necessarily refers to a virgin in its various uses.
Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:46 am
Karl,
Just for interest, the Septuagint translates Isaiah 62:5 as a young man will marry a virgin.
The last I looked, translations are not evidence in this forum. The LXX is a translation. Therefore, it’s not evidence.
Karl W. Randolph.
Karl,
I have not studied linguistics, but I imagine that translations are used to figure out what ancient words meant. Also, the Septuagint is a translation of the Hebrew, so you can analyze the Septuagint to figure out what "parthenos" meant in Greek. You could look at some of these verses and say that parthenos did not mean virgin always, and you could use Isaiah 62:5 to prove it just like you use it to prove that betulah doesn't mean virgin there. A translation might not prove the meaning of the word betulah, but it does show the meaning of the word "parthenos." Don't you think so? The translators either did not know Hebrew well or they didn't know Greek well.
Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:46 am
Karl,
Just for interest, the Septuagint translates Isaiah 62:5 as a young man will marry a virgin.
The last I looked, translations are not evidence in this forum. The LXX is a translation. Therefore, it’s not evidence.
Karl W. Randolph.
Karl,
I have not studied linguistics, but I imagine that translations are used to figure out what ancient words meant. Also, the Septuagint is a translation of the Hebrew, so you can analyze the Septuagint to figure out what "parthenos" meant in Greek. You could look at some of these verses and say that parthenos did not mean virgin always, and you could use Isaiah 62:5 to prove it just like you use it to prove that betulah doesn't mean virgin there. A translation might not prove the meaning of the word betulah, but it does show the meaning of the word "parthenos." Don't you think so? The translators either did not know Hebrew well or they didn't know Greek well.
Karl,
I forgot to ask you something. Do you think parthenos meant virgin only or it could be used about non-virgins too?
