The Temporal Horizon of the Immanuel Oracle

[Jason Hare]

dang. Jason arguing with Gentry and Williamson!

My biggest personality flaw is that I tend to argue with everyone. Why can’t I just be more agreeable?

[Kenneth Greifer]

By the way, have you heard of the Facebook group Greek & Hebrew One-Year Bible Reading Group? Each year, a group makes a commitment to reading through the Bible in Hebrew and/or Greek and using the group to keep each other motivated, accountable, and interested. It’s also for discussions of things that you find interesting in your reading. Some people read through the Septuagint in Greek and the New Testament in Greek. I tend to read through the Hebrew Bible and the Hebrew New Testament. I think I might read the Greek New Testament one of these times. Does it sound like something that might interest you?

I would not do that. I like to jump around in the Hebrew Bible like flipping the book open and see what is there and then flipping to another page.

[kwrandolph]

Karl,

I found this interesting - and correct - in reading what the New Interpreter's Bible says, which is an Evangelical Christian commentary series. From Gene M. Tucker's section on Isaiah concerning this verse:

There are many people calling themselves “evangelical” who, a generation ago, would have been recognized as flaming liberals, anything but evangelical. We cannot trust the terms that people call themselves.

"Texts such as this one, especially when read in the context of Christian worship, sharpen the tension between the historical meaning and the homiletical or theological interpretation of the Bible, and the Old Testament in particular. What Isa. 7:14 7:10-25 meant in its original contexts and what it means in the shadow of Matt 1:18-25 may be quite different. Matthew quotes Isa. 7:14 as a prophecy of the conception and birth of Jesus, while Isaiah almost certainly had in view a particular woman and child in his own time. Because the church's commitment to the Bible includes the Old Testament, Christian readers should seek to allow the words from Isaiah to be heard in their own terms first and to consider not only how the New Testament interprets the Old, but also how the Old Testament enriches the New Testament" (237).

I have deliberately not referenced the New Testament here. I think the case can be made on the merits of the Hebrew language used in this verse.

No, I don’t agree with Gene M. Tucker, whoever he is, on this interpretation.

For what it's worth, this is also my view.

Jonathan

The nice thing about this forum is that we can disagree, and agree to disagree, without becoming enemies.

Karl W. Randolph.

[Kenneth Greifer]

I think the problem with Isaiah 7:14-16 is that people turn the sign into a prophecy, and then they act like the sign can happen at any time in the future because it is a separate prophecy. I think usually the sign happens before the prophecy comes true, but in this case, the sign is a time frame, so the real prophecy about the land being forsaken should take place between the beginning and the end of the sign, which is a child will be born and then it will eventually eat curd and honey and know the difference between good and evil at some level.

[Kenneth Greifer]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but Isaiah 7:14 could say that a young woman or virgin will have a child "...and she will beget a son and she will call his name..." or "...and you (Ahaz) (singular you masculine) will beget a son and you will call his name..."

Later, it says before the child will curd and honey, etc., the land that you (masculine singular) are fearing will be abandoned. Isaiah 7:14-16 could be spoke to Ahaz, even though it says the sign is for the house of David. It is strange because Ahaz tired G-d in Isaiah 7:11-13, but it says the house of David tired G-d. Maybe they advised Ahaz what to do or he could was called the house of David.

[Jason Hare]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but Isaiah 7:14 could say that a young woman or virgin will have a child "...and she will beget a son and she will call his name..." or "...and you (Ahaz) (singular you masculine) will beget a son and you will call his name..."

Later, it says before the child will curd and honey, etc., the land that you (masculine singular) are fearing will be abandoned. Isaiah 7:14-16 could be spoke to Ahaz, even though it says the sign is for the house of David. It is strange because Ahaz tired G-d in Isaiah 7:11-13, but it says the house of David tired G-d. Maybe they advised Ahaz what to do or he could was called the house of David.

I don’t think so. הרה וילדת בן is somewhat of a fixed expression appearing in various ways in the Bible, whether read as hārâ vəyōléḏeṯ (Isaiah 7:14) or as hārâ vəyōlaḏt (Judges 13:5, 17). I don’t think you could justify a switch of subject here.

[Kenneth Greifer]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but Isaiah 7:14 could say that a young woman or virgin will have a child "...and she will beget a son and she will call his name..." or "...and you (Ahaz) (singular you masculine) will beget a son and you will call his name..."

Later, it says before the child will curd and honey, etc., the land that you (masculine singular) are fearing will be abandoned. Isaiah 7:14-16 could be spoke to Ahaz, even though it says the sign is for the house of David. It is strange because Ahaz tired G-d in Isaiah 7:11-13, but it says the house of David tired G-d. Maybe they advised Ahaz what to do or he could was called the house of David.

I don’t think so. הרה וילדת בן is somewhat of a fixed expression appearing in various ways in the Bible, whether read as hārâ vəyōléḏeṯ (Isaiah 7:14) or as hārâ vəyōlaḏt (Judges 13:5, 17). I don’t think you could justify a switch of subject here.

In Genesis 16:11, Judges 13:5, and Judges 13:7, angels are talking directly to the woman and saying she is pregnant or will become pregnant and will have a son, but in Isaiah 7:14, the prophet is talking to Ahaz about a woman who is or will become pregnant with possibly his child. That could make a difference.

[Kenneth Greifer]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but Isaiah 7:14 could say that a young woman or virgin will have a child "...and she will beget a son and she will call his name..." or "...and you (Ahaz) (singular you masculine) will beget a son and you will call his name..."

Later, it says before the child will curd and honey, etc., the land that you (masculine singular) are fearing will be abandoned. Isaiah 7:14-16 could be spoke to Ahaz, even though it says the sign is for the house of David. It is strange because Ahaz tired G-d in Isaiah 7:11-13, but it says the house of David tired G-d. Maybe they advised Ahaz what to do or he could was called the house of David.

I don’t think so. הרה וילדת בן is somewhat of a fixed expression appearing in various ways in the Bible, whether read as hārâ vəyōléḏeṯ (Isaiah 7:14) or as hārâ vəyōlaḏt (Judges 13:5, 17). I don’t think you could justify a switch of subject here.

In Genesis 16:11, Judges 13:5, and Judges 13:7, angels are talking directly to the woman and saying she is pregnant or will become pregnant and will have a son, but in Isaiah 7:14, the prophet is talking to Ahaz about a woman who is or will become pregnant with possibly his child. That could make a difference.

What about Genesis 17:19?
Genesis 17:19 בראשית
17:19וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֗ים אֲבָל֙ שָׂרָ֣ה אִשְׁתְּךָ֗ יֹלֶ֤דֶת לְךָ֙ בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥אתָ אֶת־שְׁמ֖וֹ יִצְחָ֑ק וַהֲקִמֹתִ֨י אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֥י אִתּ֛וֹ לִבְרִ֥ית עוֹלָ֖ם לְזַרְע֥וֹ אַחֲרָֽיו׃

It says: "...Sarah is begetting (will beget) (will bear) a son for you (Abraham), and you will call his name..." or "and she will call his name..."
Does it change from Sarah naming the child to Abraham or not?

[Kenneth Greifer]

Isaiah 7:14 could say: "and she will beget a son and she will call his name" or "and she will beget a son and you will call his name" or "and you will beget a son and you will call his name..." It doesn't have to say she will name the son. Sometimes quotes say the father will name the child. For examples, see Genesis 17:19 which could say "and you (Abraham) will call his name" or "and she (Sarah) is calling (will call) his name", Exodus 2:22, 2 Samuel 12:24, and Genesis 38:3 say that the father will name the child. Sometimes, quotes say the mother will name the child.

[Kenneth Greifer]

Isaiah 7:14 could say: "and she will beget a son and she will call his name" or "and she will beget a son and you will call his name" or "and you will beget a son and you will call his name..." It doesn't have to say she will name the son. Sometimes quotes say the father will name the child. For examples, see Genesis 17:19 which could say "and you (Abraham) will call his name" or "and she (Sarah) is calling (will call) his name", Exodus 2:22, 2 Samuel 12:24, and Genesis 38:3 say that the father will name the child. Sometimes, quotes say the mother will name the child.

In Genesis 21:3, Abraham named his son Isaac, so Genesis 17:19 could say Abraham will name the child.