Page 15 of 15
Re: The Temporal Horizon of the Immanuel Oracle
Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:20 am
by Kenneth Greifer
Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:15 pm
What about Genesis 17:19?
Genesis 17:19 בראשית
17:19וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֗ים אֲבָל֙ שָׂרָ֣ה אִשְׁתְּךָ֗ יֹלֶ֤דֶת לְךָ֙ בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥אתָ אֶת־שְׁמ֖וֹ יִצְחָ֑ק וַהֲקִמֹתִ֨י אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֥י אִתּ֛וֹ לִבְרִ֥ית עוֹלָ֖ם לְזַרְע֥וֹ אַחֲרָֽיו׃
It says: "...Sarah is begetting (will beget) (will bear) a son for you (Abraham), and you will call his name..." or "and she will call his name..."
Does it change from Sarah naming the child to Abraham or not?
In Genesis 21:3, it says Abraham named Isaac.
Re: The Temporal Horizon of the Immanuel Oracle
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:54 am
by Jason Hare
Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:20 am
Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:15 pm
What about Genesis 17:19?
Genesis 17:19 בראשית
17:19וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֗ים אֲבָל֙ שָׂרָ֣ה אִשְׁתְּךָ֗ יֹלֶ֤דֶת לְךָ֙ בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥אתָ אֶת־שְׁמ֖וֹ יִצְחָ֑ק וַהֲקִמֹתִ֨י אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֥י אִתּ֛וֹ לִבְרִ֥ית עוֹלָ֖ם לְזַרְע֥וֹ אַחֲרָֽיו׃
It says: "...Sarah is begetting (will beget) (will bear) a son for you (Abraham), and you will call his name..." or "and she will call his name..."
Does it change from Sarah naming the child to Abraham or not?
In Genesis 21:3, it says Abraham named Isaac.
When that happens, the gender is explicit.
Re: The Temporal Horizon of the Immanuel Oracle
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:40 am
by Kenneth Greifer
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:54 am
Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:20 am
Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:15 pm
What about Genesis 17:19?
Genesis 17:19 בראשית
17:19וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֗ים אֲבָל֙ שָׂרָ֣ה אִשְׁתְּךָ֗ יֹלֶ֤דֶת לְךָ֙ בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥אתָ אֶת־שְׁמ֖וֹ יִצְחָ֑ק וַהֲקִמֹתִ֨י אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֥י אִתּ֛וֹ לִבְרִ֥ית עוֹלָ֖ם לְזַרְע֥וֹ אַחֲרָֽיו׃
It says: "...Sarah is begetting (will beget) (will bear) a son for you (Abraham), and you will call his name..." or "and she will call his name..."
Does it change from Sarah naming the child to Abraham or not?
In Genesis 21:3, it says Abraham named Isaac.
When that happens, the gender is explicit.
Jason,
Are you talking about the vowels? If you had to read it with just the letters only, is it explicit?
Re: The Temporal Horizon of the Immanuel Oracle
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:47 pm
by Jason Hare
Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:40 am
Jason,
Are you talking about the vowels? If you had to read it with just the letters only, is it explicit?
The difference is between ויקרא “and he called” and ותקרא “and she called” (yod versus tav).
Re: The Temporal Horizon of the Immanuel Oracle
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:27 pm
by Kenneth Greifer
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:54 am
Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:20 am
Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:15 pm
What about Genesis 17:19?
Genesis 17:19 בראשית
17:19וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֗ים אֲבָל֙ שָׂרָ֣ה אִשְׁתְּךָ֗ יֹלֶ֤דֶת לְךָ֙ בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥אתָ אֶת־שְׁמ֖וֹ יִצְחָ֑ק וַהֲקִמֹתִ֨י אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֥י אִתּ֛וֹ לִבְרִ֥ית עוֹלָ֖ם לְזַרְע֥וֹ אַחֲרָֽיו׃
It says: "...Sarah is begetting (will beget) (will bear) a son for you (Abraham), and you will call his name..." or "and she will call his name..."
Does it change from Sarah naming the child to Abraham or not?
In Genesis 21:3, it says Abraham named Isaac.
When that happens, the gender is explicit.
I think you are saying that Genesis 17:19 says "and she will call his name Isaac" because the verb doesn't change in an obvious way to show that Abraham will name the child instead of her.
Re: The Temporal Horizon of the Immanuel Oracle
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:32 pm
by Jason Hare
I wasn’t making a specific statement about Genesis 17:19. There are several verses with this type of expression. One issue is that וקראת is ambiguous when unpointed. It could be וְקָרָאתָ (masculine) or וְקָרָאת (feminine). This is the form when it is referring to the future rather than to the past (which was in my last post: ויקרא versus ותקרא). The specific form in Isaiah 7:14 could go either way. It seems that וקראת could also be an alternative form of וקראה, which is 3fs. An argument cannot be made from the form, though it is best (IMO) to go with the feminine third-person singular.
One example of וקראת being 3fs is:
Deuteronomy 31:29
כִּ֣י יָדַ֗עְתִּי אַחֲרֵ֤י מוֹתִי֙ כִּֽי־הַשְׁחֵ֣ת תַּשְׁחִת֔וּן וְסַרְתֶּ֣ם מִן־הַדֶּ֔רֶךְ אֲשֶׁ֥ר צִוִּ֖יתִי אֶתְכֶ֑ם וְקָרָ֨את אֶתְכֶ֤ם הָֽרָעָה֙ בְּאַחֲרִ֣ית הַיָּמִ֔ים כִּֽי־תַעֲשׂ֤וּ אֶת־הָרַע֙ בְּעֵינֵ֣י יְהוָ֔ה לְהַכְעִיס֖וֹ בְּמַעֲשֵׂ֥ה יְדֵיכֶֽם׃
In this verse, the subject of this verb is הָֽרָעָה, a feminine singular noun.
Re: The Temporal Horizon of the Immanuel Oracle
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:13 pm
by Kenneth Greifer
Jason,
I guess we agree that Isaiah 7:14 could say "and you will call his name" or 'and she will call his name." Thanks for discussing it in more detail.
Re: The Temporal Horizon of the Immanuel Oracle
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:15 am
by Jason Hare
Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:13 pm
Jason,
I guess we agree that Isaiah 7:14 could say "and you will call his name" or 'and she will call his name." Thanks for discussing it in more detail.
I’m sure that this isn’t the conclusion that I come to.
Re: The Temporal Horizon of the Immanuel Oracle
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:18 pm
by Kenneth Greifer
Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:15 am
Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:13 pm
Jason,
I guess we agree that Isaiah 7:14 could say "and you will call his name" or 'and she will call his name." Thanks for discussing it in more detail.
I’m sure that this isn’t the conclusion that I come to.
Jason,
I am sorry.