Of course! If he asks a question that is more directly related to the Hebrew language, something that is not determined a priori by our divergent religious positions, I’m right there with you.Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:53 pm Jason,
I am not going to discuss anything with Ethan unless he actually asks a real question or discusses something specific. I think he will do that later on. I agree that these topics are really for religious debating, and I don't want to do that here or anywhere, but I am interested in hearing different interpretations.
Isaiah 9
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- Jason Hare
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Re: Isaiah 9
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Isaiah 9
Ethan:
At times “names” were mentioned, not as given names, but as references to what a person was like.
In so far as Biblical Hebrew verbs have no time reference, there is no time reference as to when the prophesy is fulfilled.
Karl W. Randolph.
At times “names” were mentioned, not as given names, but as references to what a person was like.
In so far as Biblical Hebrew verbs have no time reference, there is no time reference as to when the prophesy is fulfilled.
Karl W. Randolph.
- Jason Hare
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Re: Isaiah 9
That’s such an odd conclusion to come to. Do you think it possible that a prophet would prophecy about the past rather than about the future?kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:28 pm In so far as Biblical Hebrew verbs have no time reference, there is no time reference as to when the prophesy is fulfilled.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Isaiah 9
Hello everyone,
Apologies for the repetitiveness of my post. I will refrain from posting such broad posts, and limit myself to purely linguistic inquiries from now on. My primary focus right now are the Messianic oracles of the Hebrew Bible, so apologies if my inquires typically revolve around that.
Apologies for the repetitiveness of my post. I will refrain from posting such broad posts, and limit myself to purely linguistic inquiries from now on. My primary focus right now are the Messianic oracles of the Hebrew Bible, so apologies if my inquires typically revolve around that.
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Re: Isaiah 9
The traditional meaning of the word prophecy referred to the present as well as the future. The present meaning only to the future.Jason Hare wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:13 pmThat’s such an odd conclusion to come to. Do you think it possible that a prophet would prophecy about the past rather than about the future?kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:28 pm In so far as Biblical Hebrew verbs have no time reference, there is no time reference as to when the prophecy is fulfilled.
As to the fulfillment of the prophecy, is there anyone who fulfilled the qualifications indicated by the names in the prophecy, either before or in Isaiah’s day? If not, then he referred to a future event.
As to the grammatical conjugations of the verbs, as I mentioned above, they give no clue as to when the event takes place.
Karl W. Randolph.
- Jason Hare
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Re: Isaiah 9
Excellent. I agree. It’s mostly about the future (warnings of what will happen as the result of disobedience), but also connected to the present (from the perspective of the prophet). Yes.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:43 pm The traditional meaning of the word prophecy referred to the present as well as the future. The present meaning only to the future.
Yes. If the child was born in that day (as per the prophecy), it was to indicate that God was with Judah and would not allow them to fall to the two kings that they had been afraid of. עִמָּ֫נוּ אֵל indicates that God is “with us,” with Judah, and (by corollary) opposed to our enemies. It does not mean that the child himself is God among men. If that is what you are asking, then no one has ever fulfilled it.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:43 pm As to the fulfillment of the prophecy, is there anyone who fulfilled the qualifications indicated by the names in the prophecy, either before or in Isaiah’s day? If not, then he referred to a future event.
Which is really irrelevant to the idea of prophecy specifically, given than you’ve stated yourself that prophecy is most readily touching on issues in the future (from the perspective of the prophet).kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:43 pm As to the grammatical conjugations of the verbs, as I mentioned above, they give no clue as to when the event takes place.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Isaiah 9
No, that’s not what the passage says. When it says that the child’s name is “God is with us”, that means that the child himself is “God is with us”. The “name” refers to the child’s nature.Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:58 pmYes. If the child was born in that day (as per the prophecy), it was to indicate that God was with Judah and would not allow them to fall to the two kings that they had been afraid of. עִמָּ֫נוּ אֵל indicates that God is “with us,” with Judah, and (by corollary) opposed to our enemies. It does not mean that the child himself is God among men. If that is what you are asking, then no one has ever fulfilled it.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:43 pm As to the fulfillment of the prophecy, is there anyone who fulfilled the qualifications indicated by the names in the prophecy, either before or in Isaiah’s day? If not, then he referred to a future event.
I won’t argue whether that prophecy has been fulfilled or not, you already know my answer.
Karl W. Randolph.
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Re: Isaiah 9
Do you think that Isaiah's children's names refer to their nature in Isaiah 7:3 and 8:3, a remnant shall return and whatever you translate the other name as מַהֵ֥ר שָׁלָ֖ל חָ֥שׁ בַּֽז?kwrandolph wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:47 amNo, that’s not what the passage says. When it says that the child’s name is “God is with us”, that means that the child himself is “God is with us”. The “name” refers to the child’s nature.Jason Hare wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:58 pmYes. If the child was born in that day (as per the prophecy), it was to indicate that God was with Judah and would not allow them to fall to the two kings that they had been afraid of. עִמָּ֫נוּ אֵל indicates that God is “with us,” with Judah, and (by corollary) opposed to our enemies. It does not mean that the child himself is God among men. If that is what you are asking, then no one has ever fulfilled it.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:43 pm As to the fulfillment of the prophecy, is there anyone who fulfilled the qualifications indicated by the names in the prophecy, either before or in Isaiah’s day? If not, then he referred to a future event.
I won’t argue whether that prophecy has been fulfilled or not, you already know my answer.
Karl W. Randolph.
Kenneth Greifer
- Jason Hare
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Re: Isaiah 9
Just to be sure, “Elijah” means “My God Yah.” You certainly don’t think that Elijah was our God, right?kwrandolph wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:47 am No, that’s not what the passage says. When it says that the child’s name is “God is with us”, that means that the child himself is “God is with us”. The “name” refers to the child’s nature.
I won’t argue whether that prophecy has been fulfilled or not, you already know my answer.
Karl W. Randolph.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
Tel Aviv, Israel
The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
ספר משלי י״ב, י׳
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Re: Isaiah 9
Are you kidding? Even your translation doesn’t make that case. Actually the translation should be “My God is Yah”.Jason Hare wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:59 pmJust to be sure, “Elijah” means “My God Yah.” You certainly don’t think that Elijah was our God, right?kwrandolph wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 12:47 am No, that’s not what the passage says. When it says that the child’s name is “God is with us”, that means that the child himself is “God is with us”. The “name” refers to the child’s nature.
I won’t argue whether that prophecy has been fulfilled or not, you already know my answer.
Karl W. Randolph.
Karl W. Randolph.