Joshua 5:15

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Jason Hare
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Joshua 5:15

Post by Jason Hare »

Joshua 5 ends with an interesting little passage. Take a read:
וַיְהִ֗י בִּֽהְי֣וֹת יְהוֹשֻׁעַ֮ בִּֽירִיחוֹ֒ וַיִּשָּׂ֤א עֵינָיו֙ וַיַּ֔רְא וְהִנֵּה־אִישׁ֙ עֹמֵ֣ד לְנֶגְדּ֔וֹ וְחַרְבּ֥וֹ שְׁלוּפָ֖ה בְּיָד֑וֹ וַיֵּ֨לֶךְ יְהוֹשֻׁ֤עַ אֵלָיו֙ וַיֹּ֣אמֶר ל֔וֹ הֲלָ֥נוּ אַתָּ֖ה אִם־לְצָרֵֽינוּ׃ וַיֹּ֣אמֶר ׀ לֹ֗א כִּ֛י אֲנִ֥י שַׂר־צְבָֽא־יהו֖ה עַתָּ֣ה בָ֑אתִי וַיִּפֹּל֩ יְהוֹשֻׁ֨עַ אֶל־פָּנָ֥יו אַ֨רְצָה֙ וַיִּשְׁתָּ֔חוּ וַיֹּ֣אמֶר ל֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֲדֹנִ֖י מְדַבֵּ֥ר אֶל־עַבְדּֽוֹ׃ וַיֹּאמֶר֩ שַׂר־צְבָ֨א יהו֜ה אֶל־יְהוֹשֻׁ֗עַ שַׁל־נַֽעַלְךָ֙ מֵעַ֣ל רַגְלֶ֔ךָ כִּ֣י הַמָּק֗וֹם אֲשֶׁ֥ר אַתָּ֛ה עֹמֵ֥ד עָלָ֖יו קֹ֣דֶשׁ ה֑וּא וַיַּ֥עַשׂ יְהוֹשֻׁ֖עַ כֵּֽן׃
Joshua sees a man standing by, and he goes to ask him if he is part of the army of Israel that is about to attach Jericho or a part of the army of Israel’s enemy. The man tells him that he is neither, but rather he is a minister in the army of God. Joshua asks him what message he has for him, and he tells him that take his shoes off because he is standing on holy ground... and that’s it. No further explanation is given.

Any idea what the relevance of this passage might be?

Thanks!
Jason Hare
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יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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Glenn Dean
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Re: Joshua 5:15

Post by Glenn Dean »

It certainly makes one think back to Moses and the burning bush and God asking him to take off his sandals.

Joshua was ready to make his first conquest as leader of Israel (i.e. over Jericho) - Moses was ready to be introduced as leader of Israel.

Another thing I think might be significant - in both cases it was God (in Moses' case), an angelic commander for the army of the Lord in Joshua's case) - interesting it was NOT a human that said "take off your sandals"

Glenn
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Jason Hare
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Re: Joshua 5:15

Post by Jason Hare »

Glenn Dean wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:26 pm It certainly makes one think back to Moses and the burning bush and God asking him to take off his sandals.

Joshua was ready to make his first conquest as leader of Israel (i.e. over Jericho) - Moses was ready to be introduced as leader of Israel.

Another thing I think might be significant - in both cases it was God (in Moses' case), an angelic commander for the army of the Lord in Joshua's case) - interesting it was NOT a human that said "take off your sandals"

Glenn
It also called Moses to mind for me. In the first couple of chapters, we see that Joshua was to be obeyed in the same way that the people had obeyed Moses. But, in Moses’s case, we know that he was on Mount Horeb / Sinai, which is considered to be a holy place. What is this holy ground on which Joshua was standing? What made it holy? Why was nothing further mentioned? It just seems elusive to me.
Jason Hare
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The Hebrew Café
יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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Glenn Dean
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Re: Joshua 5:15

Post by Glenn Dean »

Another thought - I remember someone saying the purpose of taking your sandal off might be: 1. Taking your sandal off makes you "uncomfortable" (so the idea is Moses was 40 years doing the same thing over and over, so taking his sandal off was a way to make him uncomfortable and be prepare for a different life). 2. Taking your sandal off connects you to the dust of the ground (possibly some spiritual thing, connecting your soul to earth)

One thought about why it was considered holy - is it possible, that since the Israelites had just crossed the Jordan and were now in the land they would possess, that it was considered holy based purely on the fact it was the "promised land"????

Jericho is 34 miles from Jerusalem (possibly it's proximity to jerusalem?????)

Glenn
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Joshua 5:15

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

I think it was the angel that God said He would send in Exodus 23:20-23. That angel had G-d's name or presence in it, which I assume is holy, so maybe the ground becomes holy like with the burning bush.
Kenneth Greifer
kwrandolph
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Re: Joshua 5:15

Post by kwrandolph »

This question is explicitly theological in nature. Therefore, I hesitated to answer it.

We see that this שר צבא יהוה, is distinct from YHWH, yet he is God for he accepts worship that is due God alone. In the Christian understanding of “Trinity” where there is one God, but he consists of three persons (God is a committee?) this שר צבא יהוה is none other than the second person of the Trinity. As such, he can accept worship, for he is God.

Karl W. Randolph.
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Joshua 5:15

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Karl,
There is a Hebrew controversy in Joshua 5:15. Does it say he bowed or he worshiped? I think he bowed because the same verb is often used for bowing to people in many situations that do not involve worshiping the person.
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Joshua 5:15

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

There are a few quotes that say people fell on their faces and bowed to people. Two examples are 1 Samuel 20:41 and 2 Samuel 1:2, but there are more. I got them from Blue letter Bible and I didn't check the quote numbers exactly. 2 Samuel 9:6, 1 Samuel 25:23, 2 Samuel 14:4, 14:22, and 2 Kings 4:37.
Kenneth Greifer
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SteveMiller
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Re: Joshua 5:15

Post by SteveMiller »

I recently read the book "The Jewish Gospels" by conservative Jewish scholar Daniel Boyarin.
"Throughout the Hebrew Bible there is confusion between YHVH himself, as it were, and his Mal’akh, the single, unnamed angel of the Lord, precisely in theophanies. The first example of the use of the term in Genesis already manifests this conflation. In Genesis 16:7 the “angel of YHVH” appears to Hagar and performs a series of clearly divine offices. No wonder that in v. 13, she refers to him as YHVH. As Robert Alter remarks in the name of Richard Elliot Friedman, “No clear-cut distinction between God and angel is intended.” Similarly in Genesis 22:11–18, where clearly the angel of YHVH is performing precisely the offices of YHVH himself. Another brilliant example is Exodus 3, where Moses sees the angel of YHVH inside the burning bush and then in v. 7 the very same figure addresses him and is called YHVH. There is, indeed, no clear distinction between YHVH and this special Mal’akh; they are two aspects of one divinity but also the product of a productive tension derived from the hypothetic originary ditheism of Israel’s religion."

Boyarin, Daniel. The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ (p. 93). The New Press. Kindle Edition.

You can borrow the ebook or audiobook for free from hoopla.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Joshua 5:15

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Steve,
There is a third possible explanation for the angel that speaks as God. Perhaps, people, except Moses, could not take hearing God's voice or seeing God in reality (face to face), so God had an angel that His name or presence could be in, and then this angel would appear to people, and sometimes, it would say "thus says the Lord..." and sometimes, it would talk as God because God was talking through it like it was a telephone or a puppet. This way, God could "appear" to a person and be seen, but at the same time, they would actually see and hear the angel talking. This could explain it being called the angel of God's presence in Isaiah 63:9 or 10, and it could explain Exodus 23:20-22 about hearing the angel's voice, but God talking to the person.

Just because we can't put our presence (name) in another being and talk through another being, doesn't mean God can't do it. You can't just say the angel is treated like God because God appears in the form of an angel. Perhaps, God has an angel that lets Him "appear" to people face to face or in visions and dreams and He can talk to them through it's mouth. Otherwise, how could God talk to people who are awake? He would be limited to sending messengers or angels to say "thus say the Lord..."

Some people say the angel is speaking as God's agent, so it talks like it was God, and some people say God appears in the form of an angel. My explanation is a third possible explanation.
Kenneth Greifer
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