The Qere and Ketiv in Isaiah 18:4

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Chris Watts
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The Qere and Ketiv in Isaiah 18:4

Post by Chris Watts »

Isaiah 18:4

Could someone please explain what the issue here is with the Ketiv reading, why is that wrong?

כִּי כֹה אָמַר יְהוָה אֵלַי אשקוטה אֶשְׁקֳטָה וְאַבִּיטָה בִמְכוֹנִי כְּחֹם צַח עֲלֵי־אוֹר כְּעָב טַל בְּחֹם קָצִיר

Thankyou
Chris watts
Glenn Dean
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Re: The Qere and Ketiv in Isaiah 18:4

Post by Glenn Dean »

Hi Chris:

I can't be for sure, but due to the cohortative suffix, the middle root vowel should reduce. BUT the problem is that a 'holem vav' can NOT reduce. Hence the Qere,

Glenn
Chris Watts
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Re: The Qere and Ketiv in Isaiah 18:4

Post by Chris Watts »

Hi Glen, and thankyou for your answer.

This is what I find very interesting then...

Some familiarity with grammatical rules in BH - fine. However in actual practise and only very occaisionally I wonder whether or not this is one of those situations where a pedantic sense of grammatical strictness took the throne. I listened to this verse in hebrew on mechon-mamre and he clearly pronounces the stress on the holom-vav, he clearly lengthens it meaning that he is pronouncing the Ketiv and not the qere. His pronounciation is the famous Israeli narrator on the radio Shlomo Bertonov I do believe. So my logical next question remains, why is there a qere, is it only because the ketivneeds to obey this grammar rule of a reduction before a lengthened vowel?

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Kirk Lowery
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Re: The Qere and Ketiv in Isaiah 18:4

Post by Kirk Lowery »

Some comments on the nature of K-Q. They are only found in medieval manuscripts. They are not found in the DSS. The conclusion is that this tradition began some time after the 1st century CE. The current consensus is that the Qere represented a reading tradition that was associated (passed down) with the written text.

One can try to dig beneath the reading tradition to discover why the change: scribal copying error, grammatical error, dialectical/orthographic variation, textual variant, different reading interpretation, etc., but hard evidence is mostly lacking.

There's an extended discussion (and bibliography) about the K-Q in:

Tov, Emanuel. Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible: Third Edition, Revised and Expanded. 3rd edition. Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 2011, pp. 54-59.

Hope this helps.

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Glenn Dean
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Re: The Qere and Ketiv in Isaiah 18:4

Post by Glenn Dean »

Chris Watts wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:54 am I listened to this verse in hebrew on mechon-mamre and he clearly pronounces the stress on the holom-vav, he clearly lengthens it meaning that he is pronouncing the Ketiv and not the qere.
I just listened to 18:4 and hear the "o-class vowel" (which is what the Qere has). I can NOT tell the difference between the long "holem vav" (Ketiv) and the reduced o-class vowel (which is contained in the Qere).

Glenn
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Re: The Qere and Ketiv in Isaiah 18:4

Post by Chris Watts »

Glenn Dean wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:10 am I just listened to 18:4 and hear the "o-class vowel" (which is what the Qere has). I can NOT tell the difference between the long "holem vav" (Ketiv) and the reduced o-class vowel (which is contained in the Qere).

Glenn
Glenn I am sure that the "O"class vowel is the Ketiv, that is what I hear, since the qere is an "a" class vowel with a shewa making it of quick pronounciation. Do I have this wrong?
Kirk Lowery wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:52 am There's an extended discussion (and bibliography) about the K-Q in:
Tov, Emanuel. Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible: Third Edition, Revised and Expanded. 3rd edition. Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 2011, pp. 54-59.

Hope this helps.

Kirk
Thankyou Kirk I will try and dig this up.

Interesting Observation by a John Peter Lange from his 1884 commentary though

He says "......the form written plene with the accent drawn back is of course not normal.....but Hitzio may not be wrong when he says that the double checking of the voice twice raising it between depressions fittingly depicts the agreeable repose in equipoise. We also have the same situation in Ezra 8:25 - with the same word - which means surely that this is no Co-incidence.

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Jason Hare
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Re: The Qere and Ketiv in Isaiah 18:4

Post by Jason Hare »

The o vowel is supposed to be reduced, which means it cannot be represented by a vowel letter (mater lectionis). This became common practice in the Dead Sea Scrolls (and today), but it was contrary to the normal form of biblical Hebrew. So, it was written as chataf-kamats rather than as cholam.

Both םֳ and וֹ are pronounced with o. It’s just a rule about syllable length that stress shift to ultima causes the penult to reduce. Thus, yishmór “he will keep” became yishmóru “they will keep” and then the accent shifted to the ultima and the penult reduced, as yishmorú > yishmərú “they will keep.”
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יוֹדֵ֣עַ צַ֭דִּיק נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּהֶמְתּ֑וֹ וְֽרַחֲמֵ֥י רְ֝שָׁעִ֗ים אַכְזָרִֽי׃
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Glenn Dean
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Re: The Qere and Ketiv in Isaiah 18:4

Post by Glenn Dean »

Chris Watts wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:24 pm Glenn I am sure that the "O"class vowel is the Ketiv, that is what I hear, since the qere is an "a" class vowel with a shewa making it of quick pronounciation. Do I have this wrong?
Both the Ketiv and the Qere are o-class vowels (I realize the Qere has a "qamets" but with the "sheva" to the right, that makes it "o class"), one "long o" and the other "reduced o" (but yes, both are pronounced "o").

See Jason's post above saying the same thing.

Glenn
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Re: The Qere and Ketiv in Isaiah 18:4

Post by ducky »

Chris Watts wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:54 am Hi Glen, and thankyou for your answer.

This is what I find very interesting then...

Some familiarity with grammatical rules in BH - fine. However in actual practise and only very occaisionally I wonder whether or not this is one of those situations where a pedantic sense of grammatical strictness took the throne. I listened to this verse in hebrew on mechon-mamre and he clearly pronounces the stress on the holom-vav, he clearly lengthens it meaning that he is pronouncing the Ketiv and not the qere. His pronounciation is the famous Israeli narrator on the radio Shlomo Bertonov I do believe. So my logical next question remains, why is there a qere, is it only because the ketivneeds to obey this grammar rule of a reduction before a lengthened vowel?

Chris Watts
Hi,

The Reader in the Mamre site is Abraham Shmuelof.
(according to this site: https://www.catholic.co.il/?id=2821&cat ... lang=he&m=)

For Shlomo Bertonov... You can hear is voice in this site:
https://www.hebrew4christians.com/Onlin ... tonov.html
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTTTW3BQD3M
****

Anyway, I just heard this reading from the Mamre site - and he really put the stress on the O vowel (reading it: eshqOta), and that is a wrong reading. (his reading is not very accurate in general).

The reading should put the stress on the last vowel (the last Qamats): esqotA.

***
As for the DSS, just a note.
According to their spelling, it seems that they didn't have the Mobile Sheva (the reduction) at all, and they used the pausal form (the old form) every time.
So when it comes to this form of אשקוטה/אשקטה (or אכתבה) it is expected to see it with the Vowel letter V/W (and also to expect the stress on the O vowel that wasn't reduced).
David Hunter
Glenn Dean
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Re: The Qere and Ketiv in Isaiah 18:4

Post by Glenn Dean »

ducky wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:55 am Anyway, I just heard this reading from the Mamre site - and he really put the stress on the O vowel (reading it: eshqOta), and that is a wrong reading. (his reading is not very accurate in general).

The reading should put the stress on the last vowel (the last Qamats): esqotA.
Thanxs for mentioning that Ducky - when I first listened to Mamre site it sounded to me like the stress was NOT on the final syllable (but I thought that that was because of my 'not-so-good' listening skills ). I just listened to Bertonov and I think he puts the stress on the final syllable.

You wouldn't know what the stress mark is on the final syllable?? ( אֶשְׁקֳטָ֖ה ) It's either a Tifha or a Mayela (but is there a way to tell the difference??).
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