Psalm 22:16/17

[stargirl]

Hello, I’m genuinely curious about this -

Why is וְקָ֣אם (“[it] shall rise” - Hosea 10:14), with an א, acceptable as a variant of וְקָ֥ם (“[it] will arise” - Numbers 24:17), but כָּאֲרוּ is seen as a non-existing word and therefore a non-variant of the word כָּרוּ (“they dug”)?

Of course, there is a whole debate on what the actual original word in Psalm 22:16/17 was (כָּאֲרִי vs כָּאֲרוּ vs כָּרוּ), but I’m wondering about this matter in particular.

Thanks in advance for your insight.

Carolyn Burns

[Jason Hare]

The difference is that קום is middle-weak (vav in the middle of the root). There are many examples of middle-weak roots taking a quiescent vowel-indicating alef in the Dead Sea Scrolls. However, כרה is not middle-weak. It is lamed-heh. I’m not sure that lamed-heh verbs exhibit this same phenomenon. Do you know of any?

[kwrandolph]

Hello, I’m genuinely curious about this -

Why is וְקָ֣אם (“[it] shall rise” - Hosea 10:14), with an א, acceptable as a variant of וְקָ֥ם (“[it] will arise” - Numbers 24:17),

This is because the mother tongue of the Masoretes was Aramaic, where קאם is the Aramaic word for קום (Daniel 2:31) but the form and context of Hosea 10:14 indicates the meaning “it will vomit them out” with the subject being שאון with the objects listed in the previous verse.

…but כָּאֲרוּ is seen as a non-existing word and therefore a non-variant of the word כָּרוּ (“they dug”)?

Does כרה mean “to dig”? When we look at the total uses of the verb, it appears that its meaning is “to furnish as in to provide Gn 50:5, Pr 16:27, 26:27

Of course, there is a whole debate on what the actual original word in Psalm 22:16/17 was (כָּאֲרִי vs כָּאֲרוּ vs כָּרוּ), but I’m wondering about this matter in particular.

The Nahel Heber scrap having that verse has כארו which is a verb. I’ve read that there are a few manuscripts that have the same spelling, but the ones reporting that claim never specified which are those manuscripts. The translators of the LXX didn’t recognize that verb, so substituted the verb כרה for כאר, a substitution that has been followed in many translations since.

As for the meaning of כאר, apparently it refers to distorting, as in injustice is that which distorts all (Amos 8:8).

Thanks in advance for your insight.

Carolyn Burns

Karl W. Randolph.

[stargirl]

Hi Jason,

Thanks so much for your insight. I personally do not know of any lamed-heh verbs that exhibit this. I’m curious if anyone else does?

Hi Karl,

Many Jewish and Christian sources I’ve found agree כרה means “to dig;” I personally had not heard of any alternate meanings. I’m aware of the many manuscripts that offer various versions of the word, such as 4Q88 being a possible representation of כרו (no א between the ר and the כ, but very difficult to make out overall), but I honestly didn’t want to get too much into manuscript debate here. I was more curious about the א variation in verbs. But it seems Jason might have a key observation. Are you aware of any lamed-heh verbs that exhibit the same phenomenon as the middle-weak verbs?

Carolyn Burns

[kwrandolph]

Hi Karl,

… Are you aware of any lamed-heh verbs that exhibit the same phenomenon as the middle-weak verbs?

Carolyn Burns

Carolyn:

No, I’m not aware of any such verbs.

Karl W. Randolph.

[stargirl]

Hi,

I have possibly found an example of a lahmed-he verb demonstrating the א phenomenon - ‎צָוָה (to order, command) - although it is middle-weak. It could also be referencing another verb ‎יָצָא (to go, come out).

Ezra 8:17 lists two verbs ‎וָאֲצַוֶּ֤ה and ‎ואוצאה (per footnote in Ezra and the Second Wilderness, Yoo, page 106, one from the qere the other from ketiv, respectively). Might ‎ואוצאה be derived from צָוָה (or simply just ‎יָצָא)? What are your thoughts?

Ezra and the Second Wilderness link: https://books.google.com/books?id=WOgwD ... 17&f=false

Carolyn Burns

[Jason Hare]

Hi,

I have possibly found an example of a lahmed-he verb demonstrating the א phenomenon - ‎צָוָה (to order, command) - although it is middle-weak. It could also be referencing another verb ‎יָצָא (to go, come out).

Ezra 8:17 lists two verbs ‎וָאֲצַוֶּ֤ה and ‎ואוצאה (per footnote in Ezra and the Second Wilderness, Yoo, page 106, one from the qere the other from ketiv, respectively). Might ‎ואוצאה be derived from צָוָה (or simply just ‎יָצָא)? What are your thoughts?

Ezra and the Second Wilderness link: https://books.google.com/books?id=WOgwD ... 17&f=false

Carolyn Burns

This really isn’t an example, though. There is no alef inserted into the middle of the root. I’m thinking of something like בָּאנוּ instead of בָּנוּ “they built,” עָאנוּ instead of עָנוּ “they answered,” קָאנוּ instead of קָנוּ “they acquired.” What you have here is simply confusion of which word is original, וָאֲצַוֶּה אֹתָם “and I commanded them” or וָאוֹצִאָה אֹתָם “and I brought them out.” This type of confusion happens frequently. It also isn’t uncommon to find middle-weak roots taking alef, so that קָ֫אמוּ for קָ֫מוּ “they arose” does appear. In the case of the verse in question, the root is כר״ה [kaf-resh-heh]. This issue is what has led some to change the root to כו״ר [kaf-vav-resh] in ad hoc fashion.

[ducky]

Hi,

I'd like to add something essential to the main issue here.
The quest, as I understand it, here, is to find a way to see the (so-called) כארו as a form of כרו with the meaning of "digging".

So without going into the question of if it should be really read as כארו and not כארי,
And without going into the question of if the root form can be switched to another form,
I think that the main and true question can be resolved by an understanding of the meaning of the root כרה.

It is true that the root כרה means "dig", but ONLY in the manner of digging the earth or digging a tunnel or digging a well, and so on.
Exactly like another Hebrew root חפר. Both mean the same.

Root כרה does NOT come with the meaning of "poking, thrusting" and such.

The English word "dig" comes with these two meanings. Therefore, When one sees in the biblical dictionaries that כרה/חפר means "to dig", he/she may assume that these Hebrew roots have the two definitions of "Dig", Just like English. But they don't.

you cannot לכרות hand.

Therefore, Even if one sees the word כארי as כארו, and כארו as כרו, it still doesn't matter, and it doesn't help to understand the verse as "they bored my hands and feet" ---- Since root כרה does not have this meaning.

[kwrandolph]

Hi,

I'd like to add something essential to the main issue here.
The quest, as I understand it, here, is to find a way to see the (so-called) כארו as a form of כרו with the meaning of "digging".

Actually you have the LXX giving that reading. But seeing as the translators of the LXX had lost some of the meanings of seldom used words and roots, it can be understood that the LXX translators merely guessed. I don’t remember any words right off the top of my head, but I looked up some of their other translations in the past and saw how they messed up because they didn’t know the Hebrew.

So without going into the question of if it should be really read as כארו and not כארי,
And without going into the question of if the root form can be switched to another form,
I think that the main and true question can be resolved by an understanding of the meaning of the root כרה.

I think that is not necessary.

It is true that the root כרה means "dig", but ONLY in the manner of digging the earth or digging a tunnel or digging a well, and so on.
Exactly like another Hebrew root חפר. Both mean the same.

In late Hebrew, such as Tiberian or modern Hebrews. But not in Biblical Hebrew. There is a confusion based on verses such as Genesis 26:25 where the assumption is made that in providing a well that the word itself meant “to dig”. But in verses such as Genesis 50:5 (no digging because the grave was a cave that already existed), Proverbs 16:27 and 26:27 where what’s being provided has nothing to do with digging and other verses we can see that the root meaning of כרה basically means to furnish, to provide. And yes, that sometimes means that the providing is done through the instrumentality of digging, as in providing a well, but that doesn’t change the definition of “to provide” to ”to dig”.

Root כרה does NOT come with the meaning of "poking, thrusting" and such.

The English word "dig" comes with these two meanings. Therefore, When one sees in the biblical dictionaries that כרה/חפר means "to dig", he/she may assume that these Hebrew roots have the two definitions of "Dig", Just like English. But they don't.

I don’t know where you get that idea concerning the English meanings. I, a native speaker of English, have never heard of them before.

you cannot לכרות hand.

Therefore, Even if one sees the word כארי as כארו, and כארו as כרו, it still doesn't matter, and it doesn't help to understand the verse as "they bored my hands and feet" ---- Since root כרה does not have this meaning.

“Boring” is a type of digging.

Looking at the syntax and context of the verse, the expectation is that כארו is a verb. That rules out “as a lion” כארי. Add to that that there is written evidence that כארו was the original reading of the verse. That rules out כרה being the verb in question.

That brings up the question, what does כאר mean? It is used only once in Tanakh as a verb, in this verse. This question came up years ago on this forum and one of the professors then said that in a cognate language it referred to something that was distorted, twisted out of shape. That was so long ago that I don’t remember who was that professor nor his source of his information. That meaning fits the context here.

Karl W. Randolph.

[stargirl]

I appreciate both of your insight.

@ducky I understand you believe the interpretation of כרה cannot refer to digging into skin, but I don’t want to segue my inquiry into that discussion.

@Jason I see what you’re saying. After re-reading the original article, I see that the author postulated a potential כוּר (kur) in order to demonstrate the א phenomenon. With this ad hoc design, as you mention, you would need to believe the word existed at some point in time. Additionally, although I found an example where Qal 3rd p. sg. fem. means the same thing as it’s potential scriptio plena in the words ‎שׁחה (to bow down) and שוח (to be bent, sink down), I’ve also found examples where the two don’t mean the exact same thing, such as ‎שבה (to take captive) and ‎שׁוּב (to turn back, return), and the verb ‎רמה, offered by Max in my other post, (to throw) versus ‎רוּם (to rise).

(For Ezra 8:17, I was thinking more along the lines that “brought them out” doesn’t seem to make as much sense as “commanded them,” contextually. I realize many lexicons offer “brought them out” as a possible interpretation linking it with the verb יָצָא, but the passage doesn’t seem to read the speaker going with (physically bringing) the leaders and men of learning to Iddo, but that the latter brought the attendants back. Unless it was perhaps some metaphorical sense of bringing them. Sticking with “commanded them” brought me to query whether צָוָה pairs with ואוצאה. Either way, if by some stray chance this is the case, we’re still dealing with a middle weak verb, which would not necessarily be the same demonstration of the lahmed-he/א phenomenon in question.)

Carolyn Burns