B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

Mike Atnip wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 8:44 am I have access to Gesenius, Van der Merwe, and many others through Logos and Accordance (where I have many resources that I bought as packages that I have not even explored yet!) In both Greek and Hebrew I have not entered into conditionals yet, but I think the time is here for me to do so, probably as a next step. I just finished Kutz and Josberger in Hebrew (went over most of it twice). Working on Greek and Hebrew together will probably reinforce the general concepts of conditionals. But it is something I have to slow down and think through, not just memorize a few vocabulary words.

Which textbooks do you have on Greek, since they tend to treat this topic more thoroughly?

Mounce Basics, Wallace Beyond the Basics, Mounce Morphology, Blass DF, Burton Syntax and Mood, Coneybeare, Pharr, Robertson, Moulton, Smith-Zerwick, Thackeray, Porter Idioms, Long (Kairos), Runge Discourse.
Obviously I have not been through these. Mounce and Wallace are the only ones that I have spent more than occasional time with. The last year I have focused on Hebrew so Greek studies are secondary. If there is a recommendation for a thorough "secondary level" Greek grammar that uses more modern teaching methods I would be interested.

Gesenius §159.b
Here he gives a general observation, that the imperfect (that is, the yiqtol [and this applies also to veqatal as vav-conversive perfect, as we see in the verse at the top of this post]) is used for conditions that are viewed as capable of being fulfilled, whereas the perfect (that is, the qatal [and vayiqtol]) in those that are viewed as incapable of being fulfilled. He will start giving specific examples just after this, each of which I will try to provide the Hebrew with some discussion as we go ahead.

So far, so good?

My friend Jonathan Beck just reminded me of Arnold and Choi’s short book A Guide to Biblical Hebrew Syntax (2nd ed.) (Cambridge UP, 2018) that I picked up last year. In it the authors address conditionals in chapter 5, and their section is succinct and can be added here for thought. The following is taken from pages 186 and 187.

5.2.2 Conditional Clause
This is the section that they wrote up in that book. Does this add anything to your understanding?

Mike Atnip wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:47 am Mounce Basics, Wallace Beyond the Basics, Mounce Morphology, Blass DF, Burton Syntax and Mood, Coneybeare, Pharr, Robertson, Moulton, Smith-Zerwick, Thackeray, Porter Idioms, Long (Kairos), Runge Discourse.
Obviously I have not been through these. Mounce and Wallace are the only ones that I have spent more than occasional time with. The last year I have focused on Hebrew so Greek studies are secondary. If there is a recommendation for a thorough "secondary level" Greek grammar that uses more modern teaching methods I would be interested.

I should mention that the two best programs for good Greek learning are Athenaze (I’m about to finish the series now) and the JACT series Reading Greek and Speak ing Greek. However, Hansen and Quinn’s Greek: An Intensive Course is the best for presenting the conditions in a succinct and clear way.

First of all, Gesenius is out of date. His grammar is basically of medieval Hebrew of the Masorites, not Biblical Hebrew.

I never heard of Arnold and Choi before, but when I looked at their examples, most are not conditionals. At least not in Hebrew. Part of the problem, a very common problem, is the assumption that translation = original language. So if they think that a translation is best done as a conditional, therefore the Hebrew original is also a conditional. I don’t think that all their translations are accurate. I looked up every example to see the contexts.

A second point is grammatical: if the conjugations of Qatal and Yiqtol code for modalities, as originally proposed by the late Dr. Diethelm Michel of Uni Mainz, then much of what appears to Arnold and Choi as conditionals are understood as nonconditionals by means of the different moods.

There are a couple of places where they simply mistranslated.

Karl W. Randolph.

kwrandolph wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:20 pmFirst of all, Gesenius is out of date. His grammar is basically of medieval Hebrew of the Masorites, not Biblical Hebrew.

I agree that Gesenius is dated. That’s for sure. However, his grammar is chock-full of gems that should always be considered as a starting point in any grammatical investigation, and—of course—his grammar treats biblical Hebrew.

Jason Hare wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:13 pm My friend Jonathan Beck just reminded me of Arnold and Choi’s short book A Guide to Biblical Hebrew Syntax (2nd ed.) (Cambridge UP, 2018) that I picked up last year. In it the authors address conditionals in chapter 5, and their section is succinct and can be added here for thought. The following is taken from pages 186 and 187.

5.2.2 Conditional Clause

Conditional sentences (expressing the “if... then...” relationship) are introduced by subordinate conditional clauses detailing the condition(s), that is, the “protasis.” Several particles are used to introduce conditional clauses, including occasionally the simple waw conjunctive. At times the apodosis will also be introduced by the simple conditional waw (Section 4.3.3, f): וְרָאִיתִי מָה וְהִגַּדְתִּי לָךְ, “if I see anything, then I will tell you” (1 Sam 19:3), וְיֵשׁ יְהוָה עִמָּנוּ וְלָמָּה מְצָאַתְנוּ כָּל־זֹאת, “If Yhwh is with us, why then has all this befallen us?” (Judg 6:13).
    The two primary types of conditional clauses are the real and the unreal. The former points to an action or situation that either has been fulfilled in the past or has the potential of being fulfilled, while the latter is an action or situation that is contrary to fact. The unreal condition either cannot be fulfilled or stands contrary to what has occurred in the past.

(a) Real conditional clauses are most often introduced by the particles כִּי‎, אִם or הֵן‎: אִם תִּהְיוּ כָּמֹנוּ, “If you become like us...” (Gen 34:15), כִּי־תִמְצָא אִישׁ לֹא תְבָרְכֶנּוּ‎, “If you encounter a man, do not greet him” (2 Kgs 4:29), מַה־נֹּאכַל בַּשָּׁנָה הַשְּׁבִיעִת הֵן לֹא נִזְרָע, “What shall we eat in the seventh year if we may not sow?” (Lev 25:20).
    On occasion, אֲשֶׁר can also function to indicate real conditional clauses: אֶת־הַבְּרָכָה אֲשֶׁר תִּשְׁמְעוּ אֶל־מִצְוֺת יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, “the blessing [will obtain], if you listen to the commandments of Yhwh your God” (Deut 11:27).
    A negative real conditional clause can be introduced by אִם־לֹא as follows: וְהָיָה אִם־לֹא חָפַצְתָּ בָּהּ, “If you are not pleased with her...” (Deut 21:14).

(b) Unreal conditional clauses are primarily marked by the particle לוּ, and the related particle לוּלֵא‎: לוּלֵא הִתְמַהְמָהְנוּ, “if we had not delayed” (Gen 43:10), לוּ הַחֲיִתֶם אוֹתָם לֹא הָרַגְתִּי אֶתְכֶם, “if you had saved them alive, I would not kill you” (Judg 8:19). The particle כִּי can also function in this manner.

This is the section that they wrote up in that book. Does this add anything to your understanding?

I spent a couple hours going over both the Greek and Hebrew conditional sentences. I think I have the framework in mind, but I need some time to let it get settled into my brain and become second nature to me as I read.