B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

I can not fathom one bit why these two words: מֵעָלֶיהָ and אֵלֶיהָ should be in the Feminine with the assumption that they refer back to the lion. Apart from these two words the only other Feminine word is the Jordan, which of course Edom is running away from. So would the emphasis then be on the fact that Edom is running from the Jordan, from where of course the lion came. So my question would be why scripture laid the emphasis on the Jordan as opposed to the Lion in this context, which would have seemed more logical?

הִנֵּה כְּאַרְיֵה יַעֲלֶה מִגְּאוֹן הַיַּרְדֵּן אֶל־נְוֵה אֵיתָן כִּי־אַרְגִּיעָה אֲרִיצֶנּוּ מֵעָלֶיהָ וּמִי בָחוּר אֵלֶיהָ אֶפְקֹד כִּי מִי כָמוֹנִי וּמִי יֹעִידֶנִּי וּמִי־זֶה רֹעֶה אֲשֶׁר יַעֲמֹד לְפָנָי

Chris Watts

First off, notice that BHS makes some major emendation suggestions in this verse:
I’d like to look into it further, but I’m about to miss my bus. Need to run! I’ll be back later.

Jason Hare wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:02 pm First off, notice that BHS makes some major emendation suggestions in this verse:

הִנֵּה כְּאַרְיֵה יַעֲלֶה מִגְּאוֹן הַיַּרְדֵּן אֶל־נְוֵה אֵיתָן כֵּן־אֶרְגְּעָה אֶת־צֹ(א)ן מַרְעִיתוֹ וּמִבְחַר אֵילֶ֫יהָ אֶפְקֹד כִּי מִי כָמ֫וֹנִי וּמִי יֹעִידֶ֫נִּי וּמִי־זֶה רֹעֶה אֲשֶׁר יַעֲמֹד לְפָנָי׃

I’d like to look into it further, but I’m about to miss my bus. Need to run! I’ll be back later.

Hi Jason, Sorry, I have no idea what you mean. I have three hebrew scriptures. One of them is BHS, but it repeats verse 19 exactly like the other two.
Chris watts

Jason's referring to the BHS footnotes: check out 19d and 19e footnotes in BHS and you'll see what Jason's on about

S_Walch wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 4:28 pm Jason's referring to the BHS footnotes: check out 19d and 19e footnotes in BHS and you'll see what Jason's on about

Hallo Ste, my BHS Scripture has no footnotes. My Non BHS scripture has one footnote regards verse 19 but I can not read modern hebrew nor understand the abbreviations. If it is short I usually type it in a translator, however this note has a single word Ketiv and Keri, the actual word is like 4 point and un-readable.
Chris watts

Chris Watts wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 12:02 pm I can not fathom one bit why these two words: מֵעָלֶיהָ and אֵלֶיהָ should be in the Feminine with the assumption that they refer back to the lion.

הִנֵּה כְּאַרְיֵה יַעֲלֶה מִגְּאוֹן הַיַּרְדֵּן אֶל־נְוֵה אֵיתָן כִּי־אַרְגִּיעָה אֲרִיצֶנּוּ מֵעָלֶיהָ וּמִי בָחוּר אֵלֶיהָ אֶפְקֹד כִּי מִי כָמוֹנִי וּמִי יֹעִידֶנִּי וּמִי־זֶה רֹעֶה אֲשֶׁר יַעֲמֹד לְפָנָי

Chris Watts

Look at the word for “lion”, it’s feminine, not masculine. The masculine form is ארי. Therefore, does this not refer to a lioness, and not a lion?

Is it not the lionesses that do the hunting?

Karl W. Randolph.

Just from a plain reading of the text, I would take the feminine as a reference to the land of Edom. That begins in verse 14 with the first use of the feminine (הִֽתְקַבְּצוּ֙ וּבֹ֣אוּ עָלֶ֔יהָ וְק֖וּמוּ לַמִּלְחָמָֽה) just after mentioning Edom as an object of God’s punishment. I would imagine that verse 19 is continuing that declaration.

אֲרִיצֶ֨נּוּ מֵֽעָלֶ֔יהָ – “I will run them from upon it.”
וּמִ֥י בָח֖וּר אֵלֶ֣יהָ אֶפְקֹ֑ד – “And who is chosen I will appoint for her?”

This is based on the translation of the New International Version and the Christian Standard Bible. The Septuagint reads בָּחוּר as νεανίσκους (“young men”). This is without any emendation to the text.

Regarding the BHS’s emendations, here are the textual notes of the BHS (the specific footnote letters will be different, since I’m copy-pasting from the Logos edition, which begins the letters anew within each verse, but you should be able to trace out the comparison to your own BHS):
The major benefit of the BHS is not the body of the Hebrew text but the notes that they provide in the apparatus, which suggests emendations of difficult verses. If you take the notes on the verse, you could reconstruct their suggested emendation, as I did above and will paste here:
Have you used the apparatus of the BHS before? Would you like some instruction on how to read what is there on this verse?

kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 10:42 pm Look at the word for “lion”, it’s feminine, not masculine. The masculine form is ארי. Therefore, does this not refer to a lioness, and not a lion?

Is it not the lionesses that do the hunting?

Karl W. Randolph.

Is לַ֫יְלָה now also the feminine form of לַ֫יִל? No, אַרְיֵה is not feminine. The feminine form of אַרְיֵה “lion” is לְבִיאָה “lioness,” just as the feminine of חֲמוֹר “ass” is אָתוֹן “she-ass.” Some noun pairs have very distinct masculine and feminine forms.

To be clear for those who are reading on the sides, לַ֫יְלָה is masculine, אַרְיֵה is masculine, מוֹרֶה is masculine. There are masculine nouns in Hebrew that end in heh. This is not Hebrew on an advanced level.

Chris Watts wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 6:05 pm

S_Walch wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 4:28 pm Jason's referring to the BHS footnotes: check out 19d and 19e footnotes in BHS and you'll see what Jason's on about

Hallo Ste, my BHS Scripture has no footnotes. My Non BHS scripture has one footnote regards verse 19 but I can not read modern hebrew nor understand the abbreviations. If it is short I usually type it in a translator, however this note has a single word Ketiv and Keri, the actual word is like 4 point and un-readable.
Chris watts

If your BHS doesn’t have footnotes, it isn’t the BHS. It might be the BHS reader’s edition, perhaps. The main feature of the BHS is its set of footnotes. It’s why it is important for scholars.

Karl: Hi there, the lion? Yes I actually had assumed that was feminine for a number of days until I kept re-reading the sentence and double checked the gender of Lion and diecovered that it was not actually feminine, I then discovered what Jason said above and was quite surprised to find that what seemed a plural was in fact a feminine. All this promted me to put the question on the forum.

Jason: I want to digest what you answered first, but for now, thank you for your detailed reply. I actually have a 100 page booklet called "A Guide to BHS' but never used it since I never had a bible with these type of footnotes. Have never seen one either. Where do you get them? Yes the BHS I have is a reader's edition, I never knew there was a difference, hence I bought the Booklet many years ago and thought 'well, that was a waste of time' now I understand why. I actually need another booklet called "A simplified guide on how to use the guide to BHS" plus a latin dictionary! - I really can not understand the booklet either to be honest - perhaps a little explanation about your abbreviations would help just for this, I would appreciate that. Need to have a look at what you said about Moab being feminine, I will then get back to you.


Chris watts