הִמּוֹל

[Isaac Fried]

David Hunter writes

Never heard of that method you use

This is the advantage of this forum, one learns here daily new and useful things about Hebrew.

Every conjugation has an absolute, and as this name testifies about itself, it is a no-body and no-gender and no-sense.

"conjugation" is English. It is better, methinks, not to impose English grammar on Hebrew. The Hebrew verb is a root plus personal pronouns for the involved actors. C'est tout. The rest of the sentence on "absolute it is a no-body and no-gender and no-sense" is not clear to me. Examples would help.

and indeed the prefix H "shouldn't be" there exactly like any other absolute for Pi'el and Qal doesn't have a prefix

It is not an abstract "prefix H" but the personal pronoun היא, 'he', for the beneficiary of the act. Hebrew does not consist of abstract "prefixes", but of real words. It is not clear to me what you mean by "the prefix H "shouldn't be" there". It is there, the question is only what it signifies.

exactly like any other absolute for Pi'el and Qal doesn't have a prefix
טרף טרף יוסף - first טרף=tarof (Qal)

The internal O is the PP הוּא, 'he', for the poor soul torn apart by the beasts.

Anyway, you don't need to look at this letter as if it has meaning. because if you do, What would you say about the other absolutes that don't have a prefix.

Examples would be very welcome.

and this H prefix for the Niphal may come to allow the pronunciation (as a prosthetic letter) and maybe it started as an Aleph prosthetic that in time turned to H

It is an interesting theory on a "prosthetic" H coming from from a "prosthetic" A. Actually, Hebrew speakers tend now days to drop the H all together. It is now only U and I for הוּא and היא

I am glad we dwell on these issues since they are so important to the understanding of the inner structure of the Hebrew Language.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

[ducky]

Hello Isaac

As you already understand, I am not a native English speaker but I do my best.
I use the word conjugation because that is what I know is the English word to בנין=Binyan.
I don't impose the English grammar on the Hebrew - I just use the word.
If you have another translation for בנין then I'd be happy to learn and use it.
(I saw also the word Stemm, but I don't know what it means and how can I use it)

Sometimes I maybe not understood, but as I said, I do my best, so try going with me on that.

Absolute is an objective form for the root in one conjugation. It has no body, no gender, and so on.

the prefix is not a pronoun or something like that.
because if so, then the prefix would be changed from body to body.
as H (or Y) for 3rdbody
and T for 2rdbody
and Aleph or Nun for 1stbody
and so on...
but if the absolute is only comes in the same way, how can you say that any prefix or internal vowel represents a specific pronoun?

you asked for examples, and I gave you two.
one is טרף which your claim is really...
the other one - you ignored it (עשר)

I start to understand your view and I still don't agree with even 1% of it.
But anyone has the right to see things in his own way.

[Isaac Fried]

David Hunter writes

As you already understand, I am not a native English speaker

No, I did not. So what is your native language, if I may ask?

Isaac Fried, Boston University

[ducky]

Hebrew.

And I didn't know that my English is at that level for no-one will notice that.

[Isaac Fried]

David,

may I ask further, do you live now in Israel? Did you go to school in Israel?

Isaac Fried, Boston University

[ducky]

Yes.
Born there and live there.

[Jason Hare]

הִמּוֹל Genesis 17:13 What construction is this? Hiphil? Hiphil what form? Command? I'm stumped. How would it be translated?

Thank you.

Sorry that I didn't respond to your initial question, "ivrit" (I'm sure that isn't your real name!).

In Genesis 17:13, it's an infinitive absolute (what is called מָקוֹר מֻחְלָט in Hebrew). It helps people answer your question if you post the verse here. Here is the verse in question:

הִמּ֧וֹל ׀ יִמּ֛וֹל יְלִ֥יד בֵּֽיתְךָ֖ וּמִקְנַ֣ת כַּסְפֶּ֑ךָ וְהָֽיְתָ֧ה בְרִיתִ֛י בִּבְשַׂרְכֶ֖ם לִבְרִ֥ית עוֹלָֽם׃

The phrase הִמּוֹל יִמּוֹל is normally translated as "he shall surely be circumcised."

If you look this word up in the analytical lexicon, you will see that it is niphal. Niphal infinitives have a heh prefix, like הִשָּׁמֵר (infinitive absolute of נִשְׁמַר).

The expression here is in the niphal because it is passive. The future form יִמּוֹל is also niphal. You can see the full conjugation of this verb here (on the Academy's website).

[Jason Hare]

As you already understand, I am not a native English speaker but I do my best.
I use the word conjugation because that is what I know is the English word to בנין=Binyan.
I don't impose the English grammar on the Hebrew - I just use the word.
If you have another translation for בנין then I'd be happy to learn and use it.
(I saw also the word Stemm, but I don't know what it means and how can I use it)

"Conjugation" is perfectly fine.

Sometimes I maybe not understood, but as I said, I do my best, so try going with me on that.

האנגלית שלך מהממת. אל דאגה.‏

Absolute is an objective form for the root in one conjugation. It has no body, no gender, and so on.

It's normally referred to as an infinitive absolute rather than just as an absolute (which has other connotations for those of us who know Greek and Latin as well).

the prefix is not a pronoun or something like that.

You're absolutely right.

because if so, then the prefix would be changed from body to body.
as H (or Y) for 3rdbody
and T for 2rdbody
and Aleph or Nun for 1stbody
and so on...

I'd just offer you that in English גוף is termed "person." So, we say "first person," "second person" and "third person."

ממש נחמד לשמוע שיש פה מישהו שגם נולד בארץ וגם ממשיך לגור בה. גודלתי בארה"ב אבל גר כבר 12 שנים בסביבות תל אביב (חמש שנים ברחובות, שלוש בראשל"צ ושאר הזמן בעיר הלבנה). שמחתי לראות שאתה מייצג פה את ארץ מולדת עם ישראל.‏

[Isaac Fried]

David Hunter writes

the prefix is not a pronoun or something like that.
because if so, then the prefix would be changed from body to body.
as H (or Y) for 3rdbody
and T for 2rdbody
and Aleph or Nun for 1stbody
and so on...
but if the absolute is only comes in the same way, how can you say that any prefix or internal vowel represents a specific pronoun?

If the prefix is not a pronoun or something like that, as you say, then what is it? A HI vacant of meaning?
What I am saying is my way of seeing the structure of Hebrew exclusively through Hebrew. It comes from reading and explaining the תנ"ך from childhood, always only in Hebrew, I never knew any other language until graduate school. I have never ever explained anything in the תנ"ך by translating it to another language. We also never had a Hebrew dictionary at home.
I am convinced that the application of an alien English (that has lost its root system a long time ago) grammar, of foreign terminology to biblical Hebrew only obscures and obfuscates matters.
As to what you say about "prefixes" I am unreservedly convinced that the initial Hi in say הִשְמִד, 'destroyed', which according to your terminology is בנין היפעיל, is but a pre-attached היא, 'he', for the actor performing the act שמד. The internal יִ is similarly, היא, 'he', but now for the beneficiary of the act שמד. To account for the different possible persons, Hebrew adds explanatory suffixed PP. Thus:
הִשְמַדְתִּי = היא-שמד-אתי with אתי = אני
הִשְמַדְתָּ = היא-שמד-אתה
הִשְמַדְתְּ = היא-שמד-את
הִשְמִיד = היא-שמ-היא-ד
הִשְמִידה = היא-שמ-היא-ד-היא
הִשְמַדְנוּ = היא-שמד-אנוּ
הִשְמַדְתֶּם = היא-שמד-אתם
הִשְמִידוּ = היא-שמ-היא-ד-הוּא with הוּא = אתם

The internal היא is ignored in most forms for fluency.

There is another, parallel, verbal system typified by, say,
תַּשְׂמִיד = אתה-שמ-היא-ד, which is used now for a future action.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

[Jason Hare]

Isaac,

Not every letter in a language has meaning on its own. Not every sound. Sometimes, sounds are added to create forms, which create opposition to other forms, which carry meaning. The meaning is carried by the form and the root, not by specific letters. On its own, the heh has no meaning at all, the yod has nothing meaning at all, the vav has no meaning at all. Taken in tandem with the root and the shape it takes, we have meaning. More precisely, meaning is created by context and usage, not by a word's shape alone.

Therefore, the same pattern may affect one root in one way but another root another way, so that the same pattern doesn't always indicate the same effect on a root. שמיר "dill" is not the same as אכיל "edible," and neither of them conveys some feminine sense contained in י = היא, as you propose.