B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

וְעַ֥ד שַֽׂר־הַצָּבָ֖א הִגְדִּ֑יל וּמִמֶּ֙נּוּ֙ [הֵרִים כ] (הוּרַ֣ם ק) הַתָּמִ֔יד וְהֻשְׁלַ֖ךְ מְכֹ֥ון מִקְדָּשֹֽׁו׃ (Daniel 8:11)

וְצָבָ֛א תִּנָּתֵ֥ן עַל־הַתָּמִ֖יד בְּפָ֑שַׁע וְתַשְׁלֵ֤ךְ אֱמֶת֙ אַ֔רְצָה וְעָשְׂתָ֖ה וְהִצְלִֽיחָה׃ (Daniel 8:12)

וּמֵעֵת֙ הוּסַ֣ר הַתָּמִ֔יד וְלָתֵ֖ת שִׁקּ֣וּץ שֹׁמֵ֑ם יָמִ֕ים אֶ֖לֶף מָאתַ֥יִם וְתִשְׁעִֽים׃ (Daniel 12:11)

Hello. everybody.

One of my friend think the translation of Daniel 8:11 is not right. (most of well known translations)

He think #7311(Huram) has to be "exalted" instead of "taken off".

I think Daniel 8:11 is in same context with Daniel 12:11. Daniel 12:11 used the word "#5493 (hu-sar) which means " taken off".

therefore Daniel 8:11 also needs to be translated as " taken off".

but my friend does not agree with me.

he said that verse 11 is masculine and verse 12 is female. but I do not know hebrew grammar. so I do not know if his understanding is reasonable or not.

I am not sure if grammar in hebrew is always very through and consistent to be clear in the meaning for translation purpose.

in addition to that, both verse 11and 12 used "#7993 (We- hus- lak). therefore I think this Horn power tried to cast down the holy temple of God.

but my friend think this temple is not of God, but of pagan religion. which means He think the "Holy place" (#4720 Miq da sow) is different from sanctuary in verse 13.

please help.

please share you guys' understandings on this matter freely.

Daniel kim

Danielkim wrote:וְעַ֥ד שַֽׂר־הַצָּבָ֖א הִגְדִּ֑יל וּמִמֶּ֙נּוּ֙ [הֵרִים כ] (הוּרַ֣ם ק) הַתָּמִ֔יד וְהֻשְׁלַ֖ךְ מְכֹ֥ון מִקְדָּשֹֽׁו׃ (Daniel 8:11)

וְצָבָ֛א תִּנָּתֵ֥ן עַל־הַתָּמִ֖יד בְּפָ֑שַׁע וְתַשְׁלֵ֤ךְ אֱמֶת֙ אַ֔רְצָה וְעָשְׂתָ֖ה וְהִצְלִֽיחָה׃ (Daniel 8:12)

וּמֵעֵת֙ הוּסַ֣ר הַתָּמִ֔יד וְלָתֵ֖ת שִׁקּ֣וּץ שֹׁמֵ֑ם יָמִ֕ים אֶ֖לֶף מָאתַ֥יִם וְתִשְׁעִֽים׃ (Daniel 12:11)

Hello. everybody.

One of my friend think the translation of Daniel 8:11 is not right. (most of well known translations)

I don’t know translations, so I’ll go with the text.

Danielkim wrote:He think #7311(Huram) has to be "exalted" instead of "taken off".

First of all, the verb is not “Huram” הורם rather it is the hiphil הרים from רום meaning “cause to rise up”, which means that it is active causative, not passive. The passive causative “cause to be lifted up” is where the Masoretes thought that the text had been corrupted, so put in their “correction”.

The verb is “‎רום to rise ⇒ to lift up (motion upwards)” which is used in some contexts in the sense of exalting, in other contexts to lift up, sometimes for the purpose of removing.

Danielkim wrote:I think Daniel 8:11 is in same context with Daniel 12:11. Daniel 12:11 used the word "#5493 (hu-sar) which means " taken off".

therefore Daniel 8:11 also needs to be translated as " taken off".

but my friend does not agree with me.

he said that verse 11 is masculine and verse 12 is female. but I do not know hebrew grammar. so I do not know if his understanding is reasonable or not.

I am not sure if grammar in hebrew is always very through and consistent to be clear in the meaning for translation purpose.

Your friend is right that the gender of the verbs are masculine and feminine, however in the context, “horn” is feminine therefore takes a feminine verb, while the prophesy is about a man, so when the man’s actions are referenced, a masculine verb is used.

Danielkim wrote:in addition to that, both verse 11and 12 used "#7993 (We- hus- lak). therefore I think this Horn power tried to cast down the holy temple of God.

Don’t take verbs out of context. In verse 12 “truth” is the subject of “to throw down”.

Danielkim wrote:but my friend think this temple is not of God, but of pagan religion. which means He think the "Holy place" (#4720 Miq da sow) is different from sanctuary in verse 13.

Does it mean “holy place” or “sanctuary”? When one reads an unpointed text, other possibilities present themselves.

Danielkim wrote:please help.

please share you guys' understandings on this matter freely.

Daniel kim

One note, don’t use those numbers, as not all of us are dialed into them. The person who set them up was not a Hebrew scholar, so we don’t use them.

Daniel is difficult to understand, therefore difficult to translate. Daniel himself didn’t understand it, so is it not presumptuous to claim that we understand it perfectly?

This appears to refer to the Maccabee period.

Karl W. Randolph.

I would freely render it as:
8:11
And then the commander of the army rose even higher in wickedness (הגדיל), and by him the perpetual sacrifice (קרבן התמיד) was canceled and God's temple humbled down.
12:11
And from the time of the cancellation of the perpetual sacrifice (קרבן התמיד) and the introduction of the wasted abomination: thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

To : Karl W. Randolph.

first of all, thank you for your input.

But, Isn't "truth" in Daniel 8:12 Object of the "To Throw down" instead ?

I am confused.

Daniel:

Danielkim wrote:But, Isn't "truth" in Daniel 8:12 Object of the "To Throw down" instead ?

I am confused.

In verse 12, what is the subject? To me it appears that it is צגא which is a feminine noun, therefore takes a feminine verb. The first verb in the verse in context appears to be a passive verb from the context and meaning. Because the first verb is passive, that made me consider the second verb as passive too.

Truth אמת is also a feminine noun, therefore takes a feminine verb. The question then is whether or not the verb connected with “truth” is passive, or does it refer back to צבא making it active? The consonantal text can support both readings. Therefore, on second thought, you may be right.

The final two verbs don’t require an object and are feminine active, therefore point back to צבא as the subject. That’s why I’m ready to change my mind on “throw down”.

Biblical Hebrew is not as well known as some would want you to believe, which is why we have these discussions and disagreements here.

Karl W. Randolph.

kwrandolph wrote:In verse 12, what is the subject? To me it appears that it is צגא which is a feminine noun

Sorry Karl, but I'm afraid I don't see צגא anywhere in 8v11 or v12. Are you meaning צבא (as in your next sentence)? Because I do believe that צבא is a masculine, not a feminine, noun.

I would loosely translate Daniel 8:12 as
And the occupying army (צבא) was vilely standing watch to feloniously (בפשע) enforce the TAMIYD ban, and in all this, truth was trampled down even as wickedness flourished (עשתה והצליחה).

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Karl,

I thought I would add this text critical note from the NET Bible:

tc The present translation reads וּצְבָאָהּ נִתַּן (utséva’ah nittan) for the MT וְצָבָא תִּנָּתֵן (vétsava’ tinnaten). The context suggests a perfect rather than an imperfect verb.

This would support the feminine gender of the subject. For those who aren't used to this type of emendation. The editors of the NET Bible are going on the idea that the tav prefixed to the verb is in fact the feminine hey with dagesh belonging to the subject צבאה. Somewhere along the way a scribe misread a sloppily written hey and took it for a tav.

Jonathan Mohler

Here's the translation of the immediate context with the notes, all from the NETBible:

8:9 From one of them came a small horn.28 But it grew to be very big, toward the south and the east and toward the beautiful land.29 8:10 It grew so big it reached the army30 of heaven, and it brought about the fall of some of the army and some of the stars31 to the ground, where it trampled them. 8:11 It also acted arrogantly against the Prince of the army,32 from whom33 the daily sacrifice was removed and whose sanctuary34 was thrown down. 8:12 The army was given over,35 along with the daily sacrifice, in the course of his sinful rebellion.36 It hurled37 truth38 to the ground and enjoyed success.39

28 sn This small horn is Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who controlled the Seleucid kingdom from ca. 175–164 B.C. Antiochus was extremely hostile toward the Jews and persecuted them mercilessly.

29 sn The expression the beautiful land (Heb. הַצֶּבִי [hatsévi] = “the beauty”) is a cryptic reference to the land of Israel. Cf. 11:16, 41, where it is preceded by the word אֶרֶץ (’erets, “land”).

30 tn Traditionally, “host.” The term refers to God’s heavenly angelic assembly, which he sometimes leads into battle as an army.

31 sn In prescientific Israelite thinking the stars were associated with the angelic members of God’s heavenly assembly. See Judg 5:20; Job 38:7; Isa 40:26. In west Semitic mythology the stars were members of the high god’s divine assembly (see Isa 14:13).

32 sn The prince of the army may refer to God (cf. “whose sanctuary” later in the verse) or to the angel Michael (cf. 12:1).

33 tn Or perhaps “and by him,” referring to Antiochus rather than to God.

34 sn Here the sanctuary is a reference to the temple of God in Jerusalem.

35 tc The present translation reads וּצְבָאָהּ נִתַּן (utséva’ah nittan) for the MT וְצָבָא תִּנָּתֵן (vétsava’ tinnaten). The context suggests a perfect rather than an imperfect verb.

36 tn Heb “in (the course of) rebellion.” The meaning of the phrase is difficult to determine. It could mean “due to rebellion,” referring to the failures of the Jews, but this is not likely since it is not a point made elsewhere in the book. The phrase more probably refers to the rebellion against God and the atrocities against the Jews epitomized by Antiochus.

37 tc Two medieval Hebrew mss and the LXX have a passive verb here: “truth was hurled to the ground” (cf. NIV, NCV, TEV).

38 sn Truth here probably refers to the Torah. According to 1 Macc 1:56, Antiochus initiated destruction of the sacred books of the Jews.

39 tn Heb “it acted and prospered.”

Jonathan Mohler

S_Walch wrote:

kwrandolph wrote:In verse 12, what is the subject? To me it appears that it is צגא which is a feminine noun

Sorry Karl, but I'm afraid I don't see צגא anywhere in 8v11 or v12. Are you meaning צבא (as in your next sentence)? Because I do believe that צבא is a masculine, not a feminine, noun.

You caught a typo. Thanks.

The plural of צבא is צבאות, showing that it’s feminine.

Karl W. Randolph.