B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

This verse is one of the many reasons that Isaiah is so hard to read. In this verse, it seems as if Isaiah makes a play on words that sound similar, but have different meanings.

התמהמהו ותמהו השתעשעו ושעו שכרו ולא יין נעו ולא שכר

Looking at the phrases, the first phrase:

1) two words, התמהמהו ותמהו, ‎מהמה to tarry, wait for something (not an aimless delay), ‎תמה to wonder, not knowing what to do, what’s going on. In modern English, “Wait for something, but for what?”

2) two words, השתעשעו ושעו, ‎שעשע to take delight in ⇒ to play ⇒ (hit.) to delight oneself (with), ‎שעע to become darkened (eyes), cataracts ?? In modern English, “Take delight, but your eyes are darkened,”

3) three words, שכרו ולא יין, ‎שכר to become drunk, ‎יין wine, “be drunk, but no wine,” or in modern English, “be drunk without spirits,”

4) three words, נעו ולא שכר, ‎נוע to move (be in motion), ‎שכר wages, “be in motion but no wages” or in modern English, “be active without pay.”

Or the full verse, “Wait for something, but for what? Take delight, but your eyes are darkened, be drunk without spirits, be active without pay.”

This verse seems to fit the context following. If connected with the previous verse, would read “They wait for something, but for what? They take delight but their eyes are darkened, they are drunk without spirits and they are active without pay.” in describing the enemies listed in the previous verse. Does this verse close the previous section, or open the following? I think it opens the following section.

Now what does an English translation say? (No, I don’t consult with any translation when reading Tanakh.)

Verses like this are why I say that the first part of Isaiah is the most difficult part of Tanakh to read in Hebrew.

Or have I just misread this?

Karl W. Randolph.

Karl, sorry have to write this here but sent you private message 4 days ago. Trouble is my outbox still has that message. So you obviously did not get it. For some reason the message won't send, any ideas?
Regards
Chris

Chris,

I think what that means is that Karl has received your message, but he has not read it. The following link has information on this issue:

https://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtop ... 6&t=841175

And the relevant answer in that discussion:

It is not stuck there. The outbox is where messages go before they are read by the person receiving the pm. Once it has been read by the recipient the pm will be moved to the sent box. this allows you to edit or delete the message before it has been read if need be

Please let me know if this solves your problem. Karl, read your PMs.

Kirk Lowery wrote:Karl, read your PMs.

To be honest, I didn’t know there is a place for PMs (personal messages). In response to this message, I then went and looked, and looked, I figured it would be on the sign in screen, so I looked top, then bottom, then top again, and found nothing that said “Personal Messages”. After scratching my head a bit, I asked “Do you suppose it’s under ‘User Control Panel’?” There it was. It could be more obvious.

Karl W. Randolph.

Seems to to me that שעשע is a variant of זעזע, 'shake, rock, tremble, dandle', as in Isaiah 66:12
עַל צַד תִּנָּשֵׂאוּ וְעַל בִּרְכַּיִם תְּשָׁעֳשָׁעוּ
KJV: "ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees."
Then Hab. 2:7
הֲלוֹא פֶתַע יָקוּמוּ נֹשְׁכֶיךָ וְיִקְצוּ מְזַעְזְעֶיךָ וְהָיִיתָ לִמְשִׁסּוֹת לָמוֹ
NIV: "Will not your creditors suddenly arise? Will they not wake up and make you tremble? Then you will become their prey."

Also related is the תעתע, 'shiftiness, illusion, trick, gimmick, deception, maneuver', as in Gen. 27:12
הָיִיתִי בְעֵינָיו כִּמְתַעְתֵּעַ
KJV: "I shall seem to him as a deceiver"

Isaac Fried, Boston University

We may add to this the טאטא TATA as we understand it today, 'to sweep, to push the broom back and forth in sudden sharp thrusts on a dusty floor'.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

The repetitive words appear to consist of:
טעה, 'err, mislead, mistake', as in Ezekiel 13:10
יַעַן וּבְיַעַן הִטְעוּ אֶת עַמִּי לֵאמֹר שָׁלוֹם וְאֵין שָׁלוֹם
NIV: "Because they lead my people astray, saying, “Peace,” when there is no peace"
and תעה, 'go astray, lose way, deviate', as in Ps. 119:176
תָּעִיתִי כְּשֶׂה אֹבֵד בַּקֵּשׁ עַבְדֶּךָ
NIV: "I have strayed like a lost sheep. Seek your servant"

Isaac Fried, Boston University

kwrandolph wrote:This verse is one of the many reasons that Isaiah is so hard to read. In this verse, it seems as if Isaiah makes a play on words that sound similar, but have different meanings.

התמהמהו ותמהו השתעשעו ושעו שכרו ולא יין נעו ולא שכר

This verse also shows up a grammatical feature that contradicts what I was taught in class.

In class, I was taught that all Hebrew words came from triliteral roots. Well, that is all those words that were native to the language. Also that those triliteral roots were verbs. But while reading through Tanakh, I found problems with that theory.

1) How many words are native to Hebrew, and not loan words? We don’t know. Therefore, making up triliteral roots would actually be wrong for loan words. Therefore, I don’t recognize roots except those that are extent in Tanakh and where they can be recognized as roots.

2) How many roots actually are triliteral? For example, מהמה as a verb is found in nine verses, always in hitpael and always as a quadriliteral. שעשע as a verb is found in seven verses, always as a quadriliteral. How many verbal roots are in reality biliteral? How many of the medial yod and waw verbs, as well as those listed as ending in heh or geminate, really are biliteral? I don’t have an answer to this last question. In my dictionary, I still list them as triliteral because that’s what people expect and that’s how we’ve been taught to look for them, some truly might be triliteral, others not.

An example is looking at verbs that have a ש and ע in their roots. As they are listed:
• Medial waw ‎שוע to cry for help. This one appears to be a true triliteral, with the waw being a consonant, not a materes lectionis. But how many verbs are like שים and קום where the medial letter appears to be merely a grammarian’s artifact not born out by the language itself?
• Final heh ‎שעה to look with pleasure, approval Genesis 4:4–5, Isaiah 17:7–8, Psalm 119:117, hit. look to oneself with approval Isaiah 41:10, 23 ⇒ שעה מ remove approval from Psalm 39:14, Job 7:19, 14:6
• Geminate ‎שעע to become darkened (eyes), cataracts ?? Isaiah 6:10, 29:9. This one in its two uses appears to be a biliteral verb.
• Quadriliteral root ‎שעשע to take delight in Psalm 94:19, 119:70 ⇒ to play Isaiah 11:8, 66:12 ⇒ (hit.) to delight oneself (with) Isaiah 29:9, Ps 119:16, 47 which has the daughter nouns ‎שעשוע a variety of grape known for its delightful quality ?? Isaiah 5:7 αλ, שעשע that in which one can take delight Jeremiah 31:20, Psalm 119:24, 77, 92, Proverbs 8:30–31. This last example is hard not to take as a quadriliteral.

Ah, the questions brought out by reading the text. This is not the only example.

In this verse, Isaiah appears to be making a play on words that have similar sounds, but very different meanings. ‎תמה to wonder, not knowing what to do, what’s going on Genesis 43:33, Isaiah 13:8, 29:9, Habakuk 1:5, Kohelet 5:7 sounds similar to התמהמהו but its different and contrasting meaning completes an idea. That contrasting meaning also fits the context of the second half of the verse. The example of שעשע can be seen above. Isaiah was himself a man of high office, well educated, known by kings: I wouldn’t put it past him to make a play on words like the above.

Karl W. Randolph.

Karl says:
Medial waw שוע to cry for help. This one appears to be a true triliteral, with the waw being a consonant, not a materes lectionis.
Says I:
Indeed, שוע is a variant of שפע, שבע and יפע all of the root meaning 'outpour'.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

This is why I almost never read Isaac Fried’s posts, even when he answers in threads that I start. The evidence shows that he knows neither Biblical Hebrew nor linguistics.

Isaac Fried wrote:Karl says:
Medial waw שוע to cry for help. This one appears to be a true triliteral, with the waw being a consonant, not a materes lectionis.
Says I:
Indeed, שוע is a variant of שפע, שבע and יפע all of the root meaning 'outpour'.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

‎שבע to be(come) satiated → שבע satiated, full, שבע, שבעה satiatedness, fullness σ מלא (to fill in, the opposite of outpour)
‎שפע abundance Dt 33:19 αλ a noun
‎יפע to shine forth, illuminate, used for both physical light and teaching (enlightenment) Dt 33:2, Jb 3:4, 10:3, 22 → יפעת brightness, shining, used in the sense that something is great, splendid Ez 28:7, 17 ?? σ אור

None of those are “of the root meaning 'outpour'.”

Karl W. Randolph.