Isaiah 45:16 making messengers deaf?

[kwrandolph]

The second half of the verse reads, הלכו בכלמה חרשי צירים “they walk in disgrace those who ??” Now the written word חרש can have one of several meanings, one of which referring to deafness.

The reason I bring this up is because I just noticed a translation that has a different meaning than referring to deafness and messengers. I understand it as deafness among the messengers, so they don’t hear God’s message. Or sometimes the noun in plural refers to the status or action rather than to the object, in this case being the message rather than the messenger. But others take it as a happax legomai referring to the makers of idols. When the more common meaning fits the context, why even have the happax legomai?

Karl W. Randolph.

[Galena]

Based upon the fact that this is the only occurrence where it is translated 'idol' and so obviously translators could not fit the standard translation of 'messenger' or 'sorrows' or moving 'to and fro on a hinge' into this clause idol was used, but I think this is clever actually, because for a start the hebrew listeners and readers of the day would have read and heard a word that had many commonly understood meanings and would have absorbed all of its nuances into one idea? associated with this is indeed the idea of an idol? I do not see how deaf messenger fits any context here.
Kind regards

[kwrandolph]

Based upon the fact that this is the only occurrence where it is translated 'idol'

Which is exactly the reason why I raised the question. Is that a legitimate nuance or meaning associated with the Biblical Hebrew word?

and so obviously translators could not fit the standard translation of 'messenger' or 'sorrows' or moving 'to and fro on a hinge' into this clause idol was used,

But you need to look at the verb, or rather participle in construct form. There are two different roots that had the same spelling, one of which refers to deafness.

but I think this is clever actually, because for a start the hebrew listeners and readers of the day would have read and heard a word that had many commonly understood meanings and would have absorbed all of its nuances into one idea? associated with this is indeed the idea of an idol?

This is the medieval reading, but how would a Biblical Hebrew reader have understood it? That’s my question. Would a Biblical Hebrew reader have understood it as being deaf to the message that God saves?

I do not see how deaf messenger fits any context here.
Kind regards

I’m thinking that it has more to do with the message than the messenger.

Karl W. Randolph.

[Galena]

Firstly I still can not work out how you separate quotes like you do above? How do you do that? Pressing quote gets you the whole lot. How do you separate them into different boxes?

the translation of ...they shall go to confusion, all of them who are deafened messengers... is this what you mean? I'm a bit lost here.

[S_Walch]

//Hi Chris - Regarding the multiple quotes thing:

Firstly I still can not work out how you separate quotes like you do above?

How do you do that??

Pressing quote gets you the whole lot.?

How do you separate them into different boxes?

Is done like so:

Code: Select all

[quote="Galena"]Firstly I still can not work out how you separate quotes like you do above?[/quote]
[quote]How do you do that??[/quote]
[quote]Pressing quote gets you the whole lot.?[/quote]
[quote]How do you separate them into different boxes?[/quote]

Can type in the [ quote ] ] / quote ] yourself (without spaces) around the words you wish to quote //

[Galena]

Thankyou S_walch - appreciated

[Isaac Fried]

The root חרש is a variant of
גרד, גרז, גרט, גרס, גרש
הרס
חרד, חרז, חרט, חרס, חרץ, חרש
כרס, כרש, כרת
קרס, קרץ, קרש
'cut, truncate, split, hack.'
Hence the תֶּחֱרַשׁ of Ps. 83:2(1)
אֱלֹהִים אַל דֳּמִי לָךְ אַל תֶּחֱרַשׁ וְאַל תִּשְׁקֹט אֵל
NIV: "O God, do not remain silent do not turn a deaf ear, do not stand aloof, O God."
KJV: "Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God."
refers to the truncation of the sound stream issuing from the mouth, or the truncation of the sound stream entering the ear. Or, to be cut away, separated.

ציר is related to יצוּר, 'member, creature', as in Job 17:7. Also to צוּרָה, 'form, shape', as in Ezekiel 43:11. Also to the post-biblical צִיוּר 'painting, art work'.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

[kwrandolph]

Firstly I still can not work out how you separate quotes like you do above? How do you do that? Pressing quote gets you the whole lot. How do you separate them into different boxes?

The editing box accepts a simplified form of html formatting, so to separate the quotes into separate boxes, I manually insert the close quote and open quote commands. However, I can’t show you which are those commands, as they will be active if I include them in the description. This much I can say, they are inside of brackets [] with the word “quote”.

the translation of ...they shall go to confusion, all of them who are deafened messengers... is this what you mean? I'm a bit lost here.

As I said before, I now think it has more to do with the message than the messenger, and the people who are deaf are those who should get the message that is in the previous and following verses.

What’s this “they shall go to confusion”? The verbs are “They are ashamed, even disgraced all of them together, they go in disgrace those who are deaf to the message.” That’s how I presently understand the verse.

Karl W. Randolph.