Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

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ralph
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by ralph »

Kenneth Greifer wrote:A few years ago, I discussed Zechariah 4:6-7 on the old B-Hebrew, but since this is a new discussion forum with different people, I would like to try to discuss it again as an example of a possible Masoretic mistake.

Usually, it is translated as: "Not by power and not by might, but by My spirit, says the L-rd of hosts. Who are you (alef tav hay), big mountain, before Zerubbabel? (You will become) (for) a plain " or "who are you (alef tav hay), big mountain? Before Zerubabbel (you will become ) for a plain." (It does not actually say "you will become.")

Kenneth Greifer
A) A translation of The Septuagint has http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Zacharias/index.htm "7 Who art thou, the great mountain before Zorobabel, that thou shouldest prosper? whereas I will bring out the stone of the inheritance, the grace of it the equal of my grace." So that doesn't really help. And the DSS don't seem to include that verse. http://dssenglishbible.com/zechariah%204.htm I wondered maybe what the Samaritans have but it looks like maybe they only have a Torah. I can't find anything about prophetic works that they have.

B) So you have the word לְמִישֹׁ֑ר When you have a letter preceding a word, like a Kaf, or as in this case, a Lamed, they can have quite a range of meanings.

If you look at that lamed ל as "as" then it reads quite well and much closer to the hebrew than sticking a verb like 'become' in there that indeed isn't in the text.

Image

Lamed preceding a word is often translated as 'for', and 'for' can be rather like 'as'. e.g. "use a plate for a hat" . "use a plate as a hat".

So I guess we can translate it well like that, with the masoretic..i.e. "as"

So it doesn't look like a verb is missing.. Maybe translations that put in a verb are just not translating so well. And would be translating it closer to the hebrew if they wrote a simple word like 'as'.

Infact if you look at YLT - youngs literal translation, it says

"Who art thou, O great mountain Before Zerubbabel -- for a plain! And he hath brought forth the top-stone, Cries of Grace, grace -- are to it.' (Zech. 4:7 YLT)

So, "for" works

Ralph Zak
Ralph Zak
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Ralph,

I don't really think the translation in Young's Literal Translation makes any sense, but of course that is my opinion. I have a feeling that people are analyzing poetry like a linguist analyzes a language. They look at how the words are used in other quotes to decide it's meaning in this quote, but I think poetry is not supposed to be analyzed that way. I still prefer my translation: "Not in might and not in power, but in My spirit, says the L-rd of hosts, who is with (alef tav) the big mountain is before Zerubbabel to a plain (to a flat land)."

I think it means whoever has a big amount of G-d's spirit has nothing compared to Zerubbabel.
Kenneth Greifer
ducky
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by ducky »

Hello Kenneth

So according to your translation, Prophet Zecharaiah himself whom God spoke too, and Joshua the priest which is the second part of the leading - both of them are nothing compared to Zerubavel?

I don't see this sentence to be reasonable.

in your last post, you talked about people (also me) who just read it by analyzing the words according to other places in the Bible.

But remember that it is not everything I supported my word on.
I've talked about this.
And I've talked about the pattern of metaphors.
And I talked also about the context in this part of Zech.

All of them together push to the known translation that sees the mountain as a symbol for "trouble", and also to not see the את in the meaning of "with"

I also brought examples from the Bible, and from a Phoenician script at the time around Zech. time, which they all used the form of מי אתה/מי את (and also מה אתם)

So in my opinion, not only that your translation is hard (for me) to accept.
But even if it was acceptable (for me), the known translation would be more acceptable, and I don't see why we need to not accept the known translation (which is fine) and replace it with yours (even if it was acceptable (by me))
David Hunter
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

David,
I do think you analyze poetry in a kind of scientific, linguistic way. I didn't go into all of the details of how you do that. I just mentioned a little bit about that. I just think poetry is not something that you can analyze that strictly. Also, I do think that the quote might say that even great people like Zechariah and the high priest had no spirit or very little spirit of G-d compared to Zerubbabel, but it is obviously an exaggeration, since it says they have a large amount of G-d's spirit (a big mountain in spirit), but compared to him it is small amount. Poetry is a strange kind of writing that includes exaggerations I guess. I don't think you are supposed to take it that literally.
Kenneth Greifer
ducky
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by ducky »

Hello Kenneth

If you didn't read my words, then I said some stuff with examples, and if it interests you, then maybe you read it to see my view in this.

I gave a few reasons why your reading (IMO) doesn't fit the known style of the Bible (when you read the את as "with", for example).
And also about the word mountain and what it represents
And also why there is no problem of reading it as it is

And check Isa. 40:4
כׇּל גֶּיא יִנָּשֵׂא וְכׇל הַר וְגִבְעָה יִשְׁפָּלוּ וְהָיָה הֶעָקֹב לְמִישׁוֹר וְהָרְכָסִים לְבִקְעָה
KJV:
"Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low. and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain"

the mountains which turn into plain - is a positive process - as making things easier (and remove the "troubles").

I don't see why we shouldn't see it like this.
I really don't.

This reading has strong support from all sides.
David Hunter
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

David and everyone else,

I don't think the Hebrew Bible shows every single word of Biblical Hebrew used in every possible way from thousands of years ago twice for proof, if once is not enough. I don't think every possible metaphor that existed then is in the Hebrew Bible, and I don't think every combination of words is there, so you could know if this was word was ever used with that word thousands of years ago. Just because you can't find other examples of something in the Hebrew Bible doesn't mean something can't be true. I can't imagine how big the Hebrew Bible would have to be to include every detail of Biblical Hebrew for people to see every word used in every possible way twice for proof.
Kenneth Greifer
ducky
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by ducky »

But my friend,

מישור comes from the root ישר
This word can be used only in a positive way.
Always to talk about a righteous person, or a righteous way or something like that.
While the "curving and curling" is always a symbol for the crooked or bad.

you can see it on a straight road vs. a curved road.
or a straight person vs. a crooked person.

These symbols are embedded in the languages.

When you said that the high spirit man is called a mountain
and the other is called מישור (from ישר)
It just couldn't be.

A man who's called with a word that is based on root ישר it is always in a positive way.
And according to your reading, the mountain (curved) represents the good
and the מישור (straight) represents the bad (or worse)

You can't differ the poetry from its time.
In that time, these symbols meant that.
And today, you might say that a mountain is good while plain is bad.
But you push today's "symbols" to the ancient time's symbols.

You said before that people need to understand poetry.
But part of understanding the poetry is to see it according to the pattern of its time.

I'll give you an example:
In the Song of Solomon, He called his lover "a Horse" (as a compliment)
Now do me a favor, and go to your wife and call her a horse, let's see how she would react.

Each era's and its symbols.
David Hunter
ducky
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by ducky »

I'm adding to my last post (right above this) some verses with the word מישור
I didn't put here verses with words like ישר (adjective and verb), מישרים and so on.
(even though they have the same positive meaning)

To make it simple, I only wrote here verses with מישור that could be easily compared to the Zech's verse understanding.

All of them are used in a positive way.
This is the meaning of this metaphor

Isa. 11:4
וְשָׁפַט בְּצֶדֶק דַּלִּים וְהוֹכִיחַ בְּמִישׁוֹר לְעַנְוֵי אָרֶץ

Isa. 40:4
וְהָיָה הֶעָקֹב לְמִישׁוֹר

Isa. 42:16
וְהוֹלַכְתִּי עִוְרִים בְּדֶרֶךְ לֹא יָדָעוּ בִּנְתִיבוֹת לֹא יָדְעוּ אַדְרִיכֵם אָשִׂים מַחְשָׁךְ לִפְנֵיהֶם לָאוֹר וּמַעֲקַשִּׁים לְמִישׁוֹר

Mal 2:6
בְּשָׁלוֹם וּבְמִישׁוֹר הָלַךְ אִתִּי

Psalms 27:11
וּנְחֵנִי בְּאֹרַח מִישׁוֹר

So you cannot read Zech. and say "this is poetry" and therefore I can read it however I want.
Because מישור (or any type of root ישר) always comes to represent a positive thing.
And while you make it "the bad" thing - it doesn't fit the root at all
ישר = straight = always positive.
David Hunter
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

David,

My translation does not say a mountain is good and a plain is bad. These words are not used as qualities, but as quantities. A good person with a mountain (large quantity) of G-d's spirit is to a plain (flat land) (small quantity) of G-d's spirit compared to Zerubbabel. The mountain and the plain are describing the amount of G-d's spirit a good person has compared to Zerubbabel. The person is still good and actually has a lot of G-d's spirit. It is a comparison of quantity of spirit and not the quality of the person.

I think you are saying that a plain or flat land can never have a negative meaning even if it is just to compare quantities of something. It always has to be the good amount. I don't agree.
Kenneth Greifer
ducky
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by ducky »

Hello Kenneth

You said you don't agree.
But you need to find support for your words rather than to say "I think it could be".
The context supports the common reading.
The style of the words as מי את support the common reading (and not yours)
And the metaphors, as we see many times in the Bible support the common reading.

In my last post, I wrote examples of how מישור is used ONLY in a positive way.

Now check for your lexicon and check the words הר הררים עקב עקל/עקלקל and so on, and tell me if one of them comes in a positive way.

I also see that Zech is influenced by the tongues (or the idea) of the earlier prophets (like Jer. and Isa.)
there are a few parallels that show that.
And check Jer. 51:25
הִנְנִי אֵלֶיךָ הַר הַמַּשְׁחִית

Look at the combination - Also here, the noun הר is without an article
הר הגדול // הר המשחית

And here, in Jer. the הר=mountain represents Babylon (even though it is low geographically).
But that is a symbol for power (in a bad way)

And this is how it seems the idea in Zech.
He uses הר הגדול in the matter of "Power" that can cause someone to be stopped.
But then it is said, that it would turn to plain - and so, the "road" would be easy.

Exactly as it said in other places that the crooked road will turn into straight.
Or as Isa. 49:11
וְשַׂמְתִּי כׇל הָרַי לַדָּרֶךְ וּמְסִלֹּתַי יְרֻמוּן
As making the roads straight.

But as I can see, you are very convinced with your reading, and that is fine with me (I don't see it in your way though).
But I just wanted to show the other view's support (the common one's).
Last edited by ducky on Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
David Hunter
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