Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

[Kenneth Greifer]

A few years ago, I discussed Zechariah 4:6-7 on the old B-Hebrew, but since this is a new discussion forum with different people, I would like to try to discuss it again as an example of a possible Masoretic mistake.

Usually, it is translated as: "Not by power and not by might, but by My spirit, says the L-rd of hosts. Who are you (alef tav hay), big mountain, before Zerubbabel? (You will become) (for) a plain " or "who are you (alef tav hay), big mountain? Before Zerubabbel (you will become ) for a plain." (It does not actually say "you will become.")

I have many alternative translations, but I like the following one most:

"Not in power and not in might, but in My spirit, says the L-rd of hosts, who is with (alef tav) the (hay) big mountain is before Zerubabbel to a plain (flat land)."

I think it means that in G-d's spirit, but not in strength, the person with the big mountain (in spirit) is to a flat land (in spirit) compared to Zerubabbel (in spirit).

The word "who" is not only used in questions, but in statements too. For examples, see: Exodus 24:12, Exodus 32:24, Deuteronomy 21:2, and many more quotes where is usually translated as "whosoever."

I think the Masoretic mistake is the word "you" (alef tav hay) that should be (alef tav) and the letter (hay) in front of mountain as "the."

The usual translation does not make sense. It starts with a sentence fragment, no one knows what the mountain is, and it adds the words "you will become."
The word "spirit" is used with the word "with" in Numbers 14:24.

Kenneth Greifer

[kwrandolph]

Usually, it is translated as: "…Who are you (alef tav hay), big mountain, before Zerubbabel? (You will become) (for) a plain " or "who are you (alef tav hay), big mountain? Before Zerubabbel (you will become ) for a plain." (It does not actually say "you will become.")…

Kenneth Greifer

Another option is that אתה is not “you” but from the verb, a noun participle, אתה “making arrive”. Again it would be a Masoretic error, wrong pointing. Thus the reading would be “Who is the one making a big mountain arrive before Zarubbabel for (what should be, in the place of) a straight place,…”

Does that make sense to you?

Karl W. Randolph.

[Kenneth Greifer]

Karl,

I assume your idea is grammatically right because you understand Hebrew, but I don't understand the quote your way, especially what the mountain and plain represent.

Kenneth Greifer

[kwrandolph]

This is poetic in a way, in that a mountain represents difficulties, while straight way refers to things that should be done quickly and easily.

There are other verses that refer to the crooked and straight in the same way, so I take this as a variation on a not uncommon theme.

Karl W. Randolph.

[Kenneth Greifer]

I am bringing back this posting from a few years ago because I figure there are new people here and maybe someone would find it interesting, and I am curious to hear other people's opinions about my alternative translation and explanation of Zechariah 4:6-7.

[Jason Hare]

I don't see any Hebrew in the question.

[Kenneth Greifer]

Jason,

I didn't write out Hebrew letters because I can't find my paper where I have all of the Hebrew letters and which key you type on the English keyboard, so I wrote them out in English. I divided the Hebrew letters into words differently. The word "you" alef tav hay I made into "with" alef tav and the letter hay I put in front of the word " mountain" as "the mountain", and then I gave a different translation and explanation of the quote. The usual translation adds words that are not written there "you will become" a plain about a mountain becoming a plain.

[ducky]

Seeing it as a participle of "making arrive" is strange to me since this root in this form is stative and not causative. (to bring something - it would be Hiphil).

But as he said, the mountain is a symbol for the trouble, and in Jer. 51:25 it is a symbol for Babylon.
And maybe here, this prophecy is influenced by this form and link this mountain to all of those that try to gives troubles for this prophecy to happen.

And so, Even though this verse is written in a "short style", we need to understand it as a statement that will turn the "mountain" to flat.
(both a curse for the harming people and also as a symbol for Zerubavel)

And as for מי אתה - it could be a rhetorical question which is very common
and also, as you suggested, "whoever you maybe"

Anyhow, the meaning stays the same.

I know I didn't add much, but maybe just one penny.

[Jason Hare]

Jason,

I didn't write out Hebrew letters because I can't find my paper where I have all of the Hebrew letters and which key you type on the English keyboard, so I wrote them out in English. I divided the Hebrew letters into words differently. The word "you" alef tav hay I made into "with" alef tav and the letter hay I put in front of the word " mountain" as "the mountain", and then I gave a different translation and explanation of the quote. The usual translation adds words that are not written there "you will become" a plain about a mountain becoming a plain.

I understand. But, if you want other people to follow what you're saying without having to interrupt their reading of your post (and attempting to comprehend your intention), you should just go to a webpage (like here) and copy the text that you're interested in, then paste it in the post. It just helps us know what you're talking about without having to leave the forum to go searching.

In this case, your question comes from below, with the specific words in question highlighted in red.

Zechariah 4:6-7
וַיַּ֜עַן וַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֵלַי֙ לֵאמֹ֔ר זֶ֚ה דְּבַר־יְהוָ֔ה אֶל־זְרֻבָּבֶ֖ל לֵאמֹ֑ר לֹ֤א בְחַ֨יִל֙ וְלֹ֣א בְכֹ֔חַ כִּ֣י אִם־בְּרוּחִ֔י אָמַ֖ר יְהוָ֥ה צְבָאֽוֹת׃ מִֽי־אַתָּ֧ה הַֽר־הַגָּד֛וֹל לִפְנֵ֥י זְרֻבָּבֶ֖ל לְמִישֹׁ֑ר וְהוֹצִיא֙ אֶת־הָאֶ֣בֶן הָֽרֹאשָׁ֔ה תְּשֻׁא֕וֹת חֵ֥ן חֵ֖ן לָֽהּ׃

You are suggesting emending מי אתה הר הגדול to read מי את ההר הגדול, I understand. This would make the whole phrase מי את ההר הגדול לפני זרובבל למישור, and the question would be how we deal with את with such a proposition.

Have I understood you correctly?

It almost feels to me like a verb would be missing here, like הָפַךְ.

מִי [הָפַךְ] אֵת הָהָר הַגָּדוֹל לִפְנֵי זְרֻבָּבֶל לְמִישׁוֹר
Who [turned] the mountain into a plain before Zerubabel?

In that case, I would read את as the DDOM אֵת and assume that the author's meaning is that it was God who did so.

[Jason Hare]

Another option is that אתה is not “you” but from the verb, a noun participle, אתה “making arrive”. Again it would be a Masoretic error, wrong pointing. Thus the reading would be “Who is the one making a big mountain arrive before Zarubbabel for (what should be, in the place of) a straight place,…”

Karl, I have nothing close to expertise in Aramaic (so I really don't know), but I'm aware that the verb אֲתָה means "he came." Wouldn't there need to be something comparable to the hiphil (an H form) to make it "caused to come"? Could that be represented only with the two letters את in some way? I don't see this as particularly feasible, but I might be wrong (having less than a semester's worth of Aramaic).