Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Jason,

In my translation, the "who" is not for a question, but a declarative statement (I think that is what you call it)."Not in might, and not in power, but in My spirit, says the L-rd of hosts, who is with the big mountain (in G-d's spirit) is before Zerubbabel to a plain (to flat land)." Compared to Zerubbabel a person with a mountain of spirit is to a flat land in spirit.
Kenneth Greifer
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Jason,
I thought people were going to read the original posting where I explained things better. I guess I should have copied it to the new posting.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by Jason Hare »

Kenneth Greifer wrote:Jason,

In my translation, the "who" is not for a question, but a declarative statement (I think that is what you call it)."Not in might, and not in power, but in My spirit, says the L-rd of hosts, who is with the big mountain (in G-d's spirit) is before Zerubbabel to a plain (to flat land)." Compared to Zerubbabel a person with a mountain of spirit is to a flat land in spirit.
Why would that be מי and not אשר?
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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Jason,
The word “who” (whoever) (mem yud) is usually used in questions, but not always. For example, "who" (whoever) is used in sentences that are not questions in GENESIS 43:22, GENESIS 21:26, EXODUS 24:14, EXODUS 32:24, EXODUS 32:26, EXODUS 32:33, DEUTERONOMY 21:1, 1 SAMUEL 14:17, 1 KINGS 1:20, PROVERBS 9:4, 16, ISAIAH 54:15, and PSALM 107:43. There are probably more quotes. I don't know why it is used.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by Jason Hare »

Kenneth Greifer wrote:Jason,
The word “who” (whoever) (mem yud) is usually used in questions, but not always. For example, "who" (whoever) is used in sentences that are not questions in GENESIS 43:22, GENESIS 21:26, EXODUS 24:14, EXODUS 32:24, EXODUS 32:26, EXODUS 32:33, DEUTERONOMY 21:1, 1 SAMUEL 14:17, 1 KINGS 1:20, PROVERBS 9:4, 16, ISAIAH 54:15, and PSALM 107:43. There are probably more quotes. I don't know why it is used.
I know that it's used this way, of course. But the sentence you gave in English seems to use a relative clause.
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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Jason,

Maybe if you think about the quote a different way. "Who (whoever) is with the big mountain in My spirit is before Zerubbabel to a plain (to a flat land), but not in might and not in strength, says the L-rd of hosts." I don't think "who" refers back to anyone, but stands on it's own.
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by ducky »

Hello Kenneth,

Can you explain what you mean by:
"Who (whoever) is with the big mountain in My spirit is before Zerubbabel to a plain (to a flat land)"

is the man with the big mountain is positive or negative?
and what does it means "is before Zerubbabel to a plain"
Is this man who is with the big mountain would become plain? (what does that mean?)
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by ducky »

I think that the מי אתה means "whoever you are"
(as you said also)

In Phoenician, there is a grave with a script on it that says "don't open it and bla bla bla..." as usual. and it is around the same time of Zechariah.

And it says there מי את כל אדם
(מי אתה כל אדם)
as saying whoever you are (any man)

and so, I see it here in the same style
מי אתה הר גדול
whatever big mountain you are (any mountain)

And then it continues to say that Before Zerubavel you are seen as a plain (flat)
David Hunter
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

David,

I think it says that someone who is with (who has) a lot of G-d's spirit (a big mountain of spirit) has a flat land in spirit (nothing) compared to Zerubbabel, but that is only when you look at the amount of G-d's spirit a person has. When it comes to strength and power, that is not true about Zerubbabel. Other people have more strength than him.
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

Post by ducky »

Hello, Kenneth
Interesting.
But I see some problems with this reading (in my opinion)

1. There is no form of מי את or מי עם at all.
And it doesn't seem to be like that also here.
If it was meant to say as you say, it would be maybe with the word בעל.
Such as מי בעל דברים Ex. 24:14

2. You linked the mountain with the spirit.
But the simple context doesn't mean so.
Because the next verse talks about him taking out the stone (as if it was under the mountain).
And so, when it says, "Not with power but with my spirit", this is the intention of saying that you won't need physical power to complete the building process since it would be made by God's help.
And therefore comes the next verse of an image of a physical action that is done with ease.
Because no physical power is needed.

So if you just read this as praising Zerubavel high spirit, then it breaks the simple context.

3. מי אתה seems right as to be seen as my example I put above.
And/Or also as the Biblical usage of "what is your state" (or: who do you think you are and why).
Ruth 3:16; מי את בתי
Judges 18:8; מה אתם
Isa. 51:12 מי את
All of these are questions are not "who" but as "what happened?, What is your state" and so on.

So I don't see a problem with this מי אתה in Zech.
David Hunter
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