Zechariah 4:6-7 Masoretic Mistake?

[Jason Hare]

If I had any problem with this text as traditionally read, it would only be with the lack of article on הר: הַר־הַגָּדוֹל. Even that is explainable, but that would be the only thing that would make me think that maybe the ה could slide over there.

אַתָּה הַר הַגָּדוֹל ← אֵת הָהָר הַגָּדוֹל

As written, would you read "the mountain of the great one"? As if it were construct?

[Kenneth Greifer]

David,

Numbers 14:24 says a spirit was "with" someone, so "who is with" a big mountain in G-d's spirit can make sense.

Jason,

How do you read the traditional text because every translation I see has the unwritten words "you will become" a plain added to the quote?

[ducky]

Kenneth

Numbers indeed says "Spirit with someone"
but how does that connect to this?
I'm talking about the form of מי את? as (whoever with)
there is no such form.
and when the Bible wants to say that, it uses another form.

And as I said, it doesn't have a real sense in this context when you read it like that.
And also, since when a big mountain is acted as a description of a soul?
It is actually a negative form as comes to describe "troubles".

Jason,
There is no need to fix the אתה into את
you can still keep it as אתה and add another ה to the next word
because sometimes when there are two same letters one after the other, one is dropped.

But also, there is no real need to do that, because the Bible also has this form of only the adjective gets the article.
And more than that, it is more common in the post-biblical era, and Zech. book is a very late book.
So there is no real need to even fix that.

[Jason Hare]

By the way, in footnote a BHS suggests the possible transmission of the heh and reconstructed pointing as מִי אַתָּ הָהָר הַגָּדוֹל.

With this adjustment, we see two lines of the stanza:

מִי אַתָּ הָהָר הַגָּדוֹל Who are you, oh great mountain?! (implying that it is nothing)
לִפְנֵי זְרֻבָּבֶל לְמִישֹׁר Before Zerubbabel [you are] to a plain. (meaning that the mountain really is nothing before him)

In better English: "Who do you think you are, great mountain, which turns to a plain before Zerubbabel!?"

It's obviously not within a man's power to simply remove a mountain (not talking about using dynamite and such). The prophet is saying that it is not military might or force that makes Zerubbabel great. The spirit of God in Zerubbabel would cause mountains to disappear before him. It's a literary device. The mountain may think it is great, but it is nothing before this living force.

[ducky]

Agree.

But also, as I said, there is no need to "fix" it like that - as taking out the ה from the אתה.

we can see it as:
1. אתה ההר הגדול (as one H was dropped because of two in a row).

2. Or leave it as it is:
אתה הר הגדול (as seen in other places in the Bible, and common in the post-biblical era).

[Kenneth Greifer]

David,

You said there are no other quotes that say "who is with", and all I can say is I doubt every word and phrase appears at least twice in the Hebrew Bible. There must be a lot of phrases that appear only once, but people don't notice them until someone points a quote out for some reason.

Jason,

I don't know what to say. I think the translation you gave doesn't make sense to me. You are assuming what the mountain is about. This is poetry, so who knows what it really meant, but it would be an amazing coincidence that if you move one letter, the quote says something that makes sense in a poetic way. I think that my reading does make sense, even if you don't agree with moving a letter. Wouldn't you at least say that my reading is a legitimate possible reading or would you say my reading of the quote is absolutely not possible?

[Kenneth Greifer]

I have a few other possible alternative readings for this quote, but I am not going to show them because they make less sense than the one I gave already. Maybe I'll show them in the future. I am fascinated by your arguments against my reading of Zechariah 4:6-7 so far. I can't imagine any way to convince you two that my reading makes sense.

[ducky]

Kenneth,

The biggest problem in your reading (in my opinion) is not bad knowledge of Hebrew.
But it is about the meaning you give it.

Because seeing it as saying: the one with big Mountain
as if the mountain represents the soul or spirit - is not seems to be the style of the Bible nor any other layer of Hebrew.

Also, as I said, when a man is attributed as one with an "attitude", it never comes in that way - it sounds weird.
Now you can say that it is a "one-time case".
But since this kind of description is not a rare thing, and it appears many times, then it is hard to accept that there is a one-time case which is different since we don't find it on other Hebrews texts (as post-biblical that can be a witness to a development of that time of Zech.)

The other problem is that it doesn't fit the context.
Because the verse continues with the symbol of the stone.
And so why would we read the first part of the verse as a description of Zerubavel in comparison to another?
they come together - As Zerubavel take the stone with ease since no big mountain can stand before him. And why? because of God's help.

I don't see how your reading fits nicely to the context - and also, it doesn't seem right in the meaning of the symbol of soul (as a mountain), and also with the form of מי את as who with.

And last thing - I don't even see a reason to see it as an error in the text.
It is understood as it is.

I read now your last comment.
The reason that I don't accept it just because it doesn't seems right - in the most natural way.

[Jason Hare]

I don't know what to say. I think the translation you gave doesn't make sense to me. You are assuming what the mountain is about. This is poetry, so who knows what it really meant, but it would be an amazing coincidence that if you move one letter, the quote says something that makes sense in a poetic way. I think that my reading does make sense, even if you don't agree with moving a letter. Wouldn't you at least say that my reading is a legitimate possible reading or would you say my reading of the quote is absolutely not possible?

Do you think it is possible to translate anything while having no idea what it's talking about? The prophets often used the word picture of mountains becoming plains and plains becoming mountains to refer to power. We are told that Jerusalem will be raised above every hill and that all the mountains will be made low. These are one and the same word picture, and it is telling us that there will be nothing or no one who can stand before Zerubbabel. (That is, of course, hyperbole, but we shouldn't be shocked to run into something like this in the words of the prophets.)

[Kenneth Greifer]

Jason and David,
A mountain can become a plain or be lower than Jerusalem in the future. I understand the Bible says that some times. That does not mean every time it mentions a mountain and a plain it is saying the same thing. Mountains and plains could be used as metaphors for how much of G-d's spirit a person has compared to Zerubbabel. Poetry can be pretty flexible and words can be used more than one way.