B-Hebrew: The Biblical Hebrew Forum

Hello. Proverbs 23:4 reads:

אַל־תִּיגַע לְֽהַעֲשִׁיר מִֽבִּינָתְךָ חֲדָֽל׃

How could I understand it? I could make a translation like: 'Don't toil to get rich, from your understanding it desists.' But it doesn't make any sense. I mean, I'm translating the last word as a Qatal, but this approach has the problem of not having a clear subject (which, apparently, also happens in verse 5, thus giving me the idea that in both verses the subject is just implied.) Or can it be treated as an imperative, as many translations seem to do?

Furthermore: This is just speculation, but could מִֽבִּינָתְךָ be understood not as a preposition + 'your understanding' but as preposition + 'your midst', given that 'middle' or 'between' is בֵּין? In that case, the translation could end up being something like: 'Don't toil to get rich, from your midst it [money] will cease.'

Please excuse me if I'm a bit confused here. I appreciate any help you can give.

I don't see anything unusual with the grammar, and nothing there for ambiguity. Thus:

Consider the context of the first 8 verses - don't be lulled into flattery, the man with power in business, influence in your career, authority or has money; if you find yourself in his circle be careful what you take out of his hand, what you agree to do, what he might offer you. Then we have verse 4 -Do not burden and labour wearily for the good things in life that you are willing to become a slave to a rich man's, or politicians' or businessman's control. Therefore leave this way of your own מִֽבִּינָתְךָ understanding and your own מִֽבִּינָתְךָ perception of how the world should be run. From your מִֽבִּינָתְךָ decision-making of how you can מִֽבִּינָתְךָ build a secure foundation for yourself, within the context of this situation leave it, have nothing to do with it. In the end you will regret it, it will be proven to have been a worthless adventure. You will therefore vomit it all up.

The hebrew here is not word for word, there are perceptions and feelings involved in translation. So one word will more than often never be enough. The subject in the first part of verse 5 is verse 4. Are you going to busy yourself with emptiness, things that have no meaning, that pass away so very quickly. All this is like sweating slave-labour for ice cubes on a sunny day.

kind regards

normansimonr wrote:Hello. Proverbs 23:4 reads:

אַל־תִּיגַע לְֽהַעֲשִׁיר מִֽבִּינָתְךָ חֲדָֽל׃

Let’s start with definition of words, starting with the term that gives us trouble:

‎חדל to abandon as in forsaking (person or effort), quitting (“forget about it”) abandon the effort

Basically what it’s saying is not to abandon your insight in your exertion to get rich (paraphrase).

normansimonr wrote:I mean, I'm translating the last word as a Qatal,

Context, form and grammar all say that this is a participle.

Karl W. Randolph.

Chris,

You are right, except that I would colloquially translate מִֽבִּינָתְךָ חֲדָֽל as 'stop being a wise guy'. In toto באנגלית צחה: "drop scheming for riches, stop being a wise guy."

Isaac Fried, Boston University

אַל־תִּיגַ֥ע לְֽהַעֲשִׁ֑יר מִֽבִּינָתְךָ֥ חֲדָֽל
As I see it, it reads something like this
Do not wear yourself out to get wealthy, be smart enough to stop.
Sincerely,
Michael Abernathy

אַל־תִּיגַ֥ע לְֽהַעֲשִׁ֑יר מִֽבִּינָתְךָ֥ חֲדָֽל
As I see it, it reads something like this
Do not wear yourself out to get wealthy, be smart enough to stop.
Sincerely,
Michael Abernathy

Sorry for the double post.
Michael Abernathy

Thank you very much for your useful ideas. So, if I got it right, I see two answers:

*Chris and Michael say that it can be translated like "Do not wear yourself out to get wealthy, be smart enough to stop."
*Karl would say (though I know you aren't fond of translations) that it could be like "Do not wear yourself out to get wealthy, nor abandon your insight."

I find them both very appealing, but I feel somewhat inclined to Karl's option. Now, is it possible to translate that participle as an imperative, as in Chris and Michael's suggestion?

PS: Thanks Chris for your interesting comment on context. But I'm a bit dubious on whether there is a thematic relationship between the previous verses and this one; it seems to me that this is a completely new proverb, don't you think?

Compare Proverbs 28:20
אִישׁ אֱמוּנוֹת רַב-בְּרָכוֹת וְאָץ לְהַעֲשִׁיר לֹא יִנָּקֶה
NIV: "A faithful person will be richly blessed, but one eager to get rich will not go unpunished."

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Norman wrote : PS: Thanks Chris for your interesting comment on context. But I'm a bit dubious on whether there is a thematic relationship between the previous verses and this one; it seems to me that this is a completely new proverb, don't you think?

Hallo Norman, ok my understanding is the following:
Verse 1 - 3 introduces a setting, a context
Verse 4 is the climax, this involves using what is not normally a negative particle except when used with a jussive, also this verb is a second person imperfect and this points to it being a jussive (carries a nuance of wish/desire in prohibition) Also there is a maqqef here and this emphasizes that the two words are one word and the stress on the last syllable, they are joined. This leads one to doubt whether at all this prohibition can be used also on the second part of this verse - it is not possible.
Verse 5 - 8 is a conclusion deliberating the reasoning behind the decision in Verse 4. While Verse 6 repeats and emphasizes the importance of the first 3 verses again.

The verb חֲדָֽל means to desist, stop doing something, leave off from doing something, slackening, all with the idea that something is already in motion, being done, and should be stopped. Isaiah 2:22 Stop having confidence in Men's ideas, this fits well with this proverb
Prov 19:27 Stop listening.....

The idea of """ nor abandon your insight.""" does not appear a logical intersection in this whole scenario, by itself it is certainly reasonable to ""Hold on to your undertanding and be wise in these situations""" but this is not what the proverb teaches, it teaches that you are to let go of your own wisdom/intelligence/cleverness in the context of how you should get rich , pay especially attention to Verse 3 where it introduces this kind of understanding into labouring mentally on how you can court favour and increase your own wealth, the result of this is always going to be a loss of self (verse 8)Look at what Verse 3 says: Be Not Desirous.... (again another Jussive), "Be not desirous" and "desist from your own scheming and wisdom" go together in perfect harmony in verse 3 and verse 4.

I hope that something here helps and encourages.
Kind regards

Isaac said : Chris,

You are right, except that I would colloquially translate מִֽבִּינָתְךָ חֲדָֽל as 'stop being a wise guy'. In toto באנגלית צחה: "drop scheming for riches, stop being a wise guy."

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Yep, I agree, I tend to somehow miss the obvious colloquial manner, but after I wrote out my reply above - we agree.
Kind regards

Isaac Fried said :
Compare Proverbs 28:20
אִישׁ אֱמוּנוֹת רַב-בְּרָכוֹת וְאָץ לְהַעֲשִׁיר לֹא יִנָּקֶה
NIV: "A faithful person will be richly blessed, but one eager to get rich will not go unpunished."

Isaac Fried, Boston University
Isaac Fried

I think that the niphal verb here is teaching us something. Consider first that this statement using the word "unpunished" is really quite out of place, especially when it seems more appropriate to be direct and exclaim: " he that is hasty to get rich shall be punished, shall fall into a pit, shall not eat of his produce, you know something like this right? But it clearly says: ....shall not go יִנָּקֶה very much tied in with idea of not pure, not innocent. So given this scenario one has to enquire as to how can we therefore not be innocent, well by being hasty and greedy, and how will this make us Not Pure/Innocent? Because it will bring with it the necessity to become corrupt or deceitful in our dealings, devious and untrue to ourselves. The qal verb וְאָץ only emphasizes that there is a 'rush' 'almost can't wait attitude' to this verse. The Niphal can be reflexive I have learned as well as passive. So methinks Punishment is a very bad translation indeed and is quite meaningless in this context. What do you think?