Psalm 40:8
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Psalm 40:8
I’m not quite sure how to take Psalm 40:8.
8 אָ֣ז אָ֭מַרְתִּי הִנֵּה־בָ֑אתִי בִּמְגִלַּת־סֵ֝֗פֶר כָּת֥וּב עָלָֽי׃
9 לַֽעֲשֹֽׂות־רְצֹונְךָ֣ אֱלֹהַ֣י חָפָ֑צְתִּי וְ֝תֹ֥ורָתְךָ֗ בְּתֹ֣וךְ מֵעָֽי׃
Most English translations have the last half of verse 8 as parenthetic. For example, the NewAmerican Version :“THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’ ”
At first I thought that הִנֵּה־בָ֑אתִי might be an example of fronting and translated it something like, “Then I said, ‘It is written of me in the scroll, Behold I have come to do your will O God.’”
The older JPS translation reads, “Then said I: 'Lo, I am come with the roll of a book which is prescribed for me.”
And the New JPS translation reads, “Then I said, ‘See, I will bring a scroll recounting what befell me.’”
Any thoughts?
Sincerely,
Michael Abernathy
8 אָ֣ז אָ֭מַרְתִּי הִנֵּה־בָ֑אתִי בִּמְגִלַּת־סֵ֝֗פֶר כָּת֥וּב עָלָֽי׃
9 לַֽעֲשֹֽׂות־רְצֹונְךָ֣ אֱלֹהַ֣י חָפָ֑צְתִּי וְ֝תֹ֥ורָתְךָ֗ בְּתֹ֣וךְ מֵעָֽי׃
Most English translations have the last half of verse 8 as parenthetic. For example, the NewAmerican Version :“THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’ ”
At first I thought that הִנֵּה־בָ֑אתִי might be an example of fronting and translated it something like, “Then I said, ‘It is written of me in the scroll, Behold I have come to do your will O God.’”
The older JPS translation reads, “Then said I: 'Lo, I am come with the roll of a book which is prescribed for me.”
And the New JPS translation reads, “Then I said, ‘See, I will bring a scroll recounting what befell me.’”
Any thoughts?
Sincerely,
Michael Abernathy
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Re: Psalm 40:8
Have you considered that the last half of verse 8 that the psalmist considers himself the substrate upon which the words of the book are written? Is that not backed up by the ending of verse 9 in parallel? This is not literal, but picturesque?
Where in Tanakh does כתב על refer to writing about? There are plenty of examples where it means to write upon, such as writing upon a stone, tablet, stick, book, etc., but is there any other place where it refers to writing about?
Karl W. Randolph.
Where in Tanakh does כתב על refer to writing about? There are plenty of examples where it means to write upon, such as writing upon a stone, tablet, stick, book, etc., but is there any other place where it refers to writing about?
Karl W. Randolph.
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Re: Psalm 40:8
Karl,
That’s an interesting interpretation. I think some of the commentators I’ve read are basing the translation “about” from 2 Kings 22:13.
Michael Abernathy
That’s an interesting interpretation. I think some of the commentators I’ve read are basing the translation “about” from 2 Kings 22:13.
Michael Abernathy
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Re: Psalm 40:8
Michael:
2 Kings 22:13 has to “say upon” meaning to “say concerning”, so I can see the “write upon” being understood as meaning to “write about”. But my concern here is that as far as I know, כתב על with the possible exception of this verse, is never used in this manner. Are there any examples of where it’s used as “write about” and not “write upon” as upon a substrate? I don’t know of any.
Karl W. Randolph.
2 Kings 22:13 has to “say upon” meaning to “say concerning”, so I can see the “write upon” being understood as meaning to “write about”. But my concern here is that as far as I know, כתב על with the possible exception of this verse, is never used in this manner. Are there any examples of where it’s used as “write about” and not “write upon” as upon a substrate? I don’t know of any.
Karl W. Randolph.
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Re: Psalm 40:8
I have found a similar example in Esther 8:8:
וְאַתֶּם כִּתְבוּ עַל־הַיְּהוּדִים כַּטּוֹב בְּעֵינֵיכֶם בְּשֵׁם הַמֶּלֶךְ וְחִתְמוּ בְּטַבַּעַת הַמֶּלֶךְ כִּי־כְתָב אֲשֶׁר־נִכְתָּב בְּשֵׁם־הַמֶּלֶךְ וְנַחְתּוֹם בְּטַבַּעַת הַמֶּלֶךְ אֵין לְהָשִׁיב
And you, write it concerning the Jews, as seems good in your eyes, in the name of the King....
But that's about it. Ever other place it is either "write upon" or "is written in".
The LXX translates as:
τότε εἶπον Ἰδοὺ ἥκω, ἐν κεφαλίδι βιβλίου γέγραπται περὶ ἐμοῦ
Then I said, "Behold, I have arrived! In the scroll of the book it has been written concerning me:"
וְאַתֶּם כִּתְבוּ עַל־הַיְּהוּדִים כַּטּוֹב בְּעֵינֵיכֶם בְּשֵׁם הַמֶּלֶךְ וְחִתְמוּ בְּטַבַּעַת הַמֶּלֶךְ כִּי־כְתָב אֲשֶׁר־נִכְתָּב בְּשֵׁם־הַמֶּלֶךְ וְנַחְתּוֹם בְּטַבַּעַת הַמֶּלֶךְ אֵין לְהָשִׁיב
And you, write it concerning the Jews, as seems good in your eyes, in the name of the King....
But that's about it. Ever other place it is either "write upon" or "is written in".
The LXX translates as:
τότε εἶπον Ἰδοὺ ἥκω, ἐν κεφαλίδι βιβλίου γέγραπται περὶ ἐμοῦ
Then I said, "Behold, I have arrived! In the scroll of the book it has been written concerning me:"
Ste Walch
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Re: Psalm 40:8
Also Esther 4:8.S_Walch wrote:I have found a similar example in Esther 8:8:…
But that's about it. Ever other place it is either "write upon" or "is written in".
…
I wonder if this is an Aramaicism? The phrase כתב על is found in Aramaic, but, except for once and that questionable understanding, in Hebrew only is post-Babylonian Exile texts with the meaning of “write about”. Furthermore, that one exception was from an educated man who knew Aramaic (Jeremiah 36:2).
As for the Book of Esther, it long impressed me as written by someone who was not an expert in Biblical Hebrew language. I think I’ve mentioned that before on this list.
There are other places where כתב על is in a metaphoric way, e.g. Proverbs 3:3, 7:3.
Karl W. Randolph.
- SteveMiller
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Re: Psalm 40:8
Karl,
I don't think you can say "in the scroll of the book it is written upon me" because of the preposition "in" before "scroll".
I don't think you can say "in the scroll of the book it is written upon me" because of the preposition "in" before "scroll".
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
- SteveMiller
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Re: Psalm 40:8
Hi aavichai,
The rules of the forum are that you have to sign your posts with your first and last name.
The easiest way to do that is to add it to your signature in your profile.
Interpreting the "in" prefix as "with" would enable Karl's translation: Then I said, 'Behold I come with the scroll of the book written upon me.'
I think your interpretation of ali to mean what I should do is not possible here.
ali can mean "upon me" as a burden upon me, as my responsibility as in the verse you quote 2Sam 18:11.
If you try to take that meaning here it would be: Then I said, Behold I come with a scroll of a book, the writing of which was my responsibility.
What's wrong with the common translation?: Then I said, Behold I come. In the scroll of the book it is written concerning me. To do your will, my God, is my delight, and your law is in my inward parts.
The rules of the forum are that you have to sign your posts with your first and last name.
The easiest way to do that is to add it to your signature in your profile.
Interpreting the "in" prefix as "with" would enable Karl's translation: Then I said, 'Behold I come with the scroll of the book written upon me.'
I think your interpretation of ali to mean what I should do is not possible here.
ali can mean "upon me" as a burden upon me, as my responsibility as in the verse you quote 2Sam 18:11.
If you try to take that meaning here it would be: Then I said, Behold I come with a scroll of a book, the writing of which was my responsibility.
What's wrong with the common translation?: Then I said, Behold I come. In the scroll of the book it is written concerning me. To do your will, my God, is my delight, and your law is in my inward parts.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
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Re: Psalm 40:8
Avichai:
After all your examples and arguments, then you present your conclusion, as follows:
As such, your earlier possible reading makes much more sense, that the עלי refers to a responsibility or duty placed upon me by the written scroll document.
Karl W. Randolph.
After all your examples and arguments, then you present your conclusion, as follows:
Do you have any manuscripts that have אלי instead of עלי? If not, I personally am of the opinion that I don’t want to make changes without evidence to back them up with examples. I prefer to try to make sense of Tanakh as written, rather than make “corrections” as I think it should have been written.aavichai wrote:What do you think?
Edit: the נותן אליך maybe stays as this - means gives to you
And the Psalm עלי in the meaning of אלי
Its still the same
As such, your earlier possible reading makes much more sense, that the עלי refers to a responsibility or duty placed upon me by the written scroll document.
Karl W. Randolph.
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Re: Psalm 40:8
How do you know it’s about the ideas, if you don’t nail down the linguistics first?aavichai wrote:Hi Karl
If you look at my reply again, you'll see that the similarity between Psalm and Ezekiel is not about the lingistic side but about the idea
That’s part of my response—is it?aavichai wrote:so I can't say for sure, and i'm not saying that i'm 100% right
but it seems to me that this is a repeat of this Idea, In a poetic style
Karl W. Randolph.