S_Walch wrote:Is it possible that the participle could be a noun like an English participle: "the turning away of"
Then the construct וּלְשָׁבֵי would be literally: and for sin's turning away, which would have LXX's and Paul's meaning.
Well quite a lot of times, a participle form of a verb is practically undistinguishable from the noun.
When a participle is a noun, it usually refers to an actor or an action. In fact, I question whether the participle is ever used as a verb in Biblical Hebrew prior to the Babylonian Exile. Translation is not understanding, and it seems that many times that the use of the participle as a gerund (which is a noun, not a verb) is rather awkward in English, better translated as a verb, but makes good sense in context in Hebrew.
S_Walch wrote:For us who follow the New Testament, we have the parallel passage in John 8:34 where it talks about a “slave of error”.
Do we have any other passages that we can think of where we have something akin to 'slave/captive/prisoner of sin/error'? A few more examples would certainly help!
How about Romans 6:16–17, 20, 2 Peter 2:19?
S_Walch wrote:As for Paul, that he's quoting the LXX Isaiah 59:20 almost word for word, and then continues to quote LXX Isaiah 59:1a straight after in Rom 11:27 (καὶ αὕτη αὐτοῖς ἡ παρʼ ἐμοῦ διαθήκη), it would be somewhat strange for this not to be from Isaiah 59:20.
Saying that, after quoting Isaiah 59:21a, Paul quotes Isaiah 27:9c (ὅταν ἀφέλωμαι αὐτοῦ τὴν ἁμαρτίαν), which if we look at 27:9a-c in the LXX, is almost a parallel to Isaiah 59:20-21a:
διὰ τοῦτο ἀφαιρεθήσεται ἀνομία Ἰακώβ, καὶ τοῦτό ἐστιν ἡ εὐλογία αὐτοῦ, ὅταν ἀφέλωμαι αὐτοῦ τὴν ἁμαρτίαν
These are why I’m open to the idea that the MT consonantal text has become corrupted.
It is my understanding of Biblical Hebrew that in order to get “the redeemer comes … and the turning away of rebellion …” that the second verb should be an infinitive, not a participle. Any thoughts on that?
SteveMiller wrote:S_Walch wrote:
Not too sure, but my point was that though the Masoretes pointed שָׁבֵ֥י as a participle, it could actually just be a noun that they've pointed incorrectly.
The possible meaning of BH participles is a good one for me to research.
These are notes concerning my musings on the participle, if you can improve on them, I’d be glad to hear about improvements. This may give you a start.
Participle: when it can be translated as a verb in speech, it can be translated using the present (Genesis 37:16, Deuteronomy 30:16) (this is the way it is used in modern Israeli Hebrew), in the future (Genesis 17:19, 19:13, Deuteronomy 3:21, 4:14, 30:18, 2 Kings 22:16, Isaiah 5:5, Jeremiah 38:22–3, 2 Chronicles 18:24) and in the past (Jeremiah 38:26, Zechariah 2:2 (1:19), 2:7 (3), 4:1, 4–5, Nehemiah 6:17, 12:38, 2 Chronicles 32:11). The participle is inflected the same way as a noun, and as such, it may actually be a noun that refers to the action rather than to the actor as is typical of other nouns. It is often used as a noun in Hebrew in contexts where in English a verb would be used, hence the noun is translated as a verb.
• Participle often used in the same manner as a noun, often is a noun.
• Participle can have the force “as [you] are [doing]. 1 Kings 20:36, Daniel 9:20 In other words, while doing an action, another event happens.
• Related to the above, has the force “when [someone] did [something]” then something else happened, Genesis 27:34
• Participles can answer purpose, why someone is there? What is his purpose for being there? An example is Genesis 37:16 where his purpose for being in that location was to look for his brothers.
• Participles can indicate ability, as in 2 Kings 2:19 “…as you can see…”, literally “as you are seeing” and 2 Kings 18:26 “…we can listen (to Aramaic)…”, verse 29 “…Hezekiah is not able…”.
• A participle in the Piel binyan often has the force of a place where an action takes place, e.g. Isaiah 30:14 מכתת the place where repeated hammering takes place, namely a metal smithy (in this case a blacksmith’s), a place where one is confident Proverbs 14:25 and a mortar where one grinds grain Proverbs 27:22.
SteveMiller wrote:S_Walch wrote:SteveMiller wrote:Is it possible that the verse could be translated : And the redeemer will come for Zion and for the turning away of sin in Jacob.?
Yes it can I believe. I in fact like that translation.
Is my translation possible even though the participle is plural?
The fact that שני would be plural if it were from שוב is one of the problems I have with the traditional translation. It’s equally a problem with your translation. That the noun there is a plural, that is one of the reasons I considered “captive” as the translation.
Karl W. Randolph.