translation of Daniel 9:26

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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: translation of Daniel 9:26

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Karl,

Daniel 4 I think is about seven periods of time that are not specified, so that can be a long time.
The word "week" in Hebrew for seven days is in Leviticus 12:5, Exodus 34:22, Deuteronomy 16:9, and "feast of weeks of days" is in Ezekiel 45:21. I got the quote numbers from the Blue letter Bible, so maybe the quote numbers are a little different.

In Daniel 10:2-3, it shouldn't have to say "3 weeks of days" or "3 sevens of days" if it meant 3 weeks or 21 days. It should have the usual Hebrew word for "week" like the one used in the quotes I listed and just say "3 weeks." Why use a different word in Daniel 10:2-3? I am not saying that the word "seven" or "sevens" is used for a week in the Hebrew Bible, but the word "week" is used.
Kenneth Greifer
If you are interested in an alternative to mainstream textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible, you should look at my site:
http://www.hebrewbiblequotes.com/
kwrandolph
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Re: translation of Daniel 9:26

Post by kwrandolph »

Kenneth Greifer wrote:The word "week" in Hebrew for seven days is in Leviticus 12:5,
You need to take this in context with Leviticus 12:2 where it says “seven days”. If שבוע meant “week” in Biblical Hebrew, then “days” would not have been necessary. But then in verse 2 the word שבעת is used.

Further, the context here is the number of days following birth, so the number 70 in verse 5 is expected to show the number of days.
Kenneth Greifer wrote:Exodus 34:22,
Again the word here is שבעת and not שבוע, therefore cannot be used as evidence for Daniel 9:24–27 where שבוע and שבעים are used.
Kenneth Greifer wrote:Deuteronomy 16:9,
If anything, you are making the case that שבעת, plural שבעות, are the words for “weeks” and not שבוע with the plural שבעים. That is a different word.
Kenneth Greifer wrote:and "feast of weeks of days" is in Ezekiel 45:21
This example really undercuts your argument, in that the plural שבעות is used with “days” indicating seven days. This undercuts also the idea that שבעת standing alone refers to a week of days.
Kenneth Greifer wrote: I got the quote numbers from the Blue letter Bible, so maybe the quote numbers are a little different.
Yes, you need to look at the Hebrew, translations can lead you astray.
Kenneth Greifer wrote:In Daniel 10:2-3, it shouldn't have to say "3 weeks of days" or "3 sevens of days" if it meant 3 weeks or 21 days. It should have the usual Hebrew word for "week" like the one used in the quotes I listed and just say "3 weeks." Why use a different word in Daniel 10:2-3? I am not saying that the word "seven" or "sevens" is used for a week in the Hebrew Bible, but the word "week" is used.
Well, the Hebrew doesn’t say “three weeks of days”, rather can say “three sevens of days”. There is no “usual Hebrew word for "week" ” in Biblical Hebrew as the above quotes show. Therefore, your claim that “…the word "week" is used” is incorrect.

Karl W. Randolph.
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: translation of Daniel 9:26

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Karl,

Leviticus 12:5 as "70 days" without the word "days" is an unusual translation instead of "two weeks."
Here are quotes with "two years days" Genesis 8:22, 41:1, 2 Samuel 13:23, 2 Samuel 14:28, Jeremiah 28:3 and 11, "a month of days" Genesis 29:14, Deuteronomy 21:13, and 2 Kings 15:13. Just because a quote says "days" after it week, month, or year might not mean anything.
Kenneth Greifer
If you are interested in an alternative to mainstream textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible, you should look at my site:
http://www.hebrewbiblequotes.com/
kwrandolph
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Re: translation of Daniel 9:26

Post by kwrandolph »

Kenneth Greifer wrote:Karl,

Leviticus 12:5 as "70 days" without the word "days" is an unusual translation instead of "two weeks."
In the context, “two weeks” make an even stranger translation. The context talks about number of days.
Kenneth Greifer wrote:Here are quotes with "two years days" Genesis 8:22, 41:1, 2 Samuel 13:23, 2 Samuel 14:28, Jeremiah 28:3 and 11, "a month of days" Genesis 29:14, Deuteronomy 21:13, and 2 Kings 15:13. Just because a quote says "days" after it week, month, or year might not mean anything.
Or the mentioning of “days” indicates the number of days without aligning the starting and ending days to a particular time such as a year. For example, April 14, 2018 to April 13, 2019 equals a year of days without aligning to the year starting January 1.

Karl W. Randolph.
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: translation of Daniel 9:26

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Karl,
"Two weeks" is a number of days, kind of.
Also, if a quote says "two years days", then I think you are saying that it means "two years", but not starting on the first day of the year, or am I misunderstanding? Is there a difference between a quote that says "two years" and a quote that says "two years days"? I don't understand how you would would interpret them differently.
Kenneth Greifer
If you are interested in an alternative to mainstream textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible, you should look at my site:
http://www.hebrewbiblequotes.com/
kwrandolph
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Re: translation of Daniel 9:26

Post by kwrandolph »

Kenneth Greifer wrote:Karl,
"Two weeks" is a number of days, kind of.
But the context indicates 70, not two weeks. In a context like this, where multiple numbers of days are being counted, leaving off “days” after one of the numbers is optional, though not optimal.
Kenneth Greifer wrote:Also, if a quote says "two years days", then I think you are saying that it means "two years", but not starting on the first day of the year, or am I misunderstanding? Is there a difference between a quote that says "two years" and a quote that says "two years days"? I don't understand how you would would interpret them differently.
In some ways of counting, if something happened if even for a short time during two calendar years, it is counted as happening “in two years”. An extreme example is if something started on December 31 and ended on January 1 of the next year, that activity is counted as happening in two years.

Therefore, to emphasize about 730 days, as opposed to two calendar years, “two years of days” emphasizes the length of time rather than the calendar dates.

English is different, and that comes from the nordic history as seafarers, where the length of time is more important than calendar dates. Hence in English, “two years” is understood as being about 730 days.

Karl W. Randolph.
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: translation of Daniel 9:26

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Karl,

I believe that you may be the only person who translates Leviticus 12:5 as "seventy (days)" instead of "two weeks." Most commentaries say Leviticus 12:5 says the two weeks are like being impure for the monthly period which is described in Leviticus 15:19-28. Around one week for the period and one week after the period.

Anyway, you say that Leviticus 12:5 says "seventy" because it should about a number of days. You can look at Numbers 11:19-20 which says something like not one day or two days or five days or ten days or twenty days, but until a month of days. It doesn't say "thirty days", but a "month of days." It should have been a number of days, but the word "month" is used. I can't wait to read your answer because I am sure it will be surprising.
Kenneth Greifer
If you are interested in an alternative to mainstream textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible, you should look at my site:
http://www.hebrewbiblequotes.com/
kwrandolph
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Re: translation of Daniel 9:26

Post by kwrandolph »

Kenneth Greifer wrote:I can't wait to read your answer because I am sure it will be surprising.
I almost didn’t answer you this time, because I’m repeating myself.
Kenneth Greifer wrote:I believe that you may be the only person who translates Leviticus 12:5 as "seventy (days)" instead of "two weeks." Most commentaries say Leviticus 12:5 says the two weeks are like being impure for the monthly period which is described in Leviticus 15:19-28. Around one week for the period and one week after the period.

Anyway, you say that Leviticus 12:5 says "seventy" because it should about a number of days.
You know that I don’t kowtow to other translations nor commentaries.

By the way, you got the numbers wrong for a woman’s monthly period. Go reread Leviticus 15:19–24. Leviticus 15:25–28 refer to a blood flow apart from a woman’s period.
Kenneth Greifer wrote:You can look at Numbers 11:19-20 which says something like not one day or two days or five days or ten days or twenty days, but until a month of days. It doesn't say "thirty days", but a "month of days." It should have been a number of days, but the word "month" is used.
Are you saying that Moses couldn’t express himself in a semi-poetic way for emphasis?

Karl W. Randolph.
Jason Hare
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Re: translation of Daniel 9:26

Post by Jason Hare »

Kenneth Greifer wrote:I believe that you may be the only person who translates Leviticus 12:5 as "seventy (days)" instead of "two weeks."
וְאִם־נְקֵבָ֣ה תֵלֵ֔ד וְטָֽמְאָ֥ה שְׁבֻעַ֖יִם כְּנִדָּתָ֑הּ וְשִׁשִּׁ֥ים יוֹם֙ וְשֵׁ֣שֶׁת יָמִ֔ים תֵּשֵׁ֖ב עַל־דְּמֵ֥י טָֽהֳרָֽה׃
The word שבעים here is certainly pointed as "two weeks," but Karl's refusal to read points leads him to read it as שִׁבְעִים rather than as שְׁבֻעַ֫יִם. Verse 2 says seven days for a boy. Verse 5 says two weeks for a girl. There is no justification for reading it as seventy days, which is longer than her complete period of impurity (33 days for a boy and 66 days for a girl). It would not be easy to justify reading שבעים as "seventy" in this verse, since it would ignore the context.
Kenneth Greifer wrote:Anyway, you say that Leviticus 12:5 says "seventy" because it should about a number of days. You can look at Numbers 11:19-20 which says something like not one day or two days or five days or ten days or twenty days, but until a month of days. It doesn't say "thirty days", but a "month of days." It should have been a number of days, but the word "month" is used. I can't wait to read your answer because I am sure it will be surprising.
Just for the record, I'm with you.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

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Kenneth Greifer
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Re: translation of Daniel 9:26

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Karl,
If you look at this, you said Leviticus 12:5 says "seventy days" instead of "two weeks (of) days", and I just realized that it would be "seventy day (singular) yom vav mem" and not yud mem yud mem, if it said "seventy days." For example, Numbers 11:19 says "20 day", Numbers 13:25, Numbers 14:34, and Ezekiel 4:6 says "forty day", and Ezekiel 4:5 says "three hundred and ninety day." The singular form of "day" is used in these quotes.
Kenneth Greifer
If you are interested in an alternative to mainstream textual criticism of the Hebrew Bible, you should look at my site:
http://www.hebrewbiblequotes.com/
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