R.J. Furuli wrote:Dear Steve,
You wrote:
Rolf,
thank you for answering.
I know that Israel is called a goy, nation many times.
But I don't know of any place where Israel is called goyim except when it was split into 2 nations: the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah. Then there were 2 nations, goim. That is what Ezekiel 2:3 is referring to. The book of Ezekiel is about the state of both nations. For example in chapter 4 Ezekiel lays on his right side for Judah and on his left side for Israel.
I think the fact that goyim plural cannot refer to Judah decides the case. unless someone can come up with a better example of Judah being called goyim
I understand your reasoning, which is logical. And your conclusion that כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם הָאֵ֖לֶּה cannot refer to the inhabitants of Judah is a legitimate interpretation. I will now make an outline of my interpretation, so the listmembers can compare your interpretation with mine.
It is correct that Ezekiel should literally
act as prophet both for Israel and Judah according to Ezekiel, chapter 4. But it seems to me that his words in chapter chapter 2 are directed to another audience. Ezekiel was taken captive by Nebuchadnezzar in 617 BCE (I use the Biblical chronology, not the traditional one), and he was taken to Babylon. Ezekiel heard the words from God when he was at the river Kebar (1:3), and to whom did he speak? To the exiles who were at the river Kebar. The ten-tribe kingdom had been destroyed more than one hundred years before Ezekiel got his visions, so he could not speak to the inhabitants of Israel.
Rolf,
Thanks for spending the time on this.
I think you are saying that Ezekiel could not have been sent to what was left of the northern 10 tribes because they had been destroyed, and could no longer be considered a nation.
Besides Ezek 4 which has separate judgments for Israel and Judah, there is also chapter 37 in which there are 2 sticks: Judah and Ephraim. God says
in 37:22 that these are 2 goim, but He will make them 1 goi again.
So when God tells Ezekiel in 2:3 that He sends him to the children of Israel, to nations who are rebels, that is to the 2 nations that compose the children of Israel at this time.
This is beside the point, but this is how I understand the time period for which Israel was composed of 2 nations. In Ezek 4 Ezekiel acts out 390 days signifying 390 years for the northern kingdom of Israel as time that they ate a small measured amount of good food mixed with a man's dung. If the 390 years start with Jereboam, which is the earliest we could start it, and which is the time that their religion became mixed with human dung, then the 10 northern tribes exist as a separate nation up until the full captivity of Judah.
So, since no one can come up with another reference to Judah or Israel as
goim, plural, this despite the fact that Israel and Judah are the main human subjects of the OT, and the word
goim is a very common word, I conclude that "all these nations round about" cannot refer to Judah.
R.J. Furuli wrote:A Hebrew word used by an author often has a big meaning potential and many possible references, and often the context will help the reader to see which side of the word the author wants to make visible and what its reference is. The meaning of כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם הָאֵ֖לֶּה is clear, but the reference is unclear. Regarding סָבִ֑יב, which side of its meaning potential that the author wants to make visible, is not clear. This means that the reference of כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם הָאֵ֖לֶּה סָבִ֑יב is ambiguous.
I will now give an outline of why I believe כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם הָאֵ֖לֶּה סָבִ֑יב refer to the inhabitants of Judah, so the listmembers can consider my arguments.
1. TWO PARLLEL ACCOUNTS
In Jeremiah 1:15-16 we find an account that is very similar to the account in 25:9: I list the parallels below.
Jer 25:9 Look! I will send for, and I will take all the families of the north, is the utterance of YHWH, also to Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babel, my servant.
Jer 1:15 For look! I will call all the families of the kingdoms of the north, is the utterance of YHWH.
Jer 25:9 And I will cause them to come
Jer 1:15 And they will come
Jer 25:9 against this land, and against its inhabitants, and against all these nations round about.
Jer 1:15 and each one will set up his throne in the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all her walls round about, and against all the towns of Judah.
Jer 25:9 And I will destroy them, and devote them to desolation, to a whisling, and and to devastation to time indefinite.
Jer 1:16 And I will declare my judgment against them.
The parallels are listed, and of particular interest is that there are three different objects that the nations will come against in both accounts, and all objects are inside the country in 1:15, 16. The parallel between “against all these nations round about (25:9) is “all the towns of Judah (1:15). This does not prove that “all these nations round about” refers to the inhabitants of Judah, but it is an interesting background of the points that follow. (I translate סָבִ֔יב in כָּל־חוֹמֹתֶ֙יהָ֙ סָבִ֔יבi in as "round about." The suffix of "walls" identifies the walls as those of Jerusalem. But because Jerusalem had other walls than those around the city, I use the ambiguous "round about."
This is an informative parallel, but very weak evidence for "this land and its inhabitants and all these nations round about" = "Jerusalem and all the towns of Judah". It can simply be that the scope of the message in Jer 25 goes beyond that of Jer 1.
R.J. Furuli wrote:2. TWO INDEPENDENT MESSAGES FROM GOD
The book of Jeremiah contains many independent messages that Jeremiah says he received from God. In the first message (1:4-12) God says to Jeremiah that he should be a prophet for the nations (1:5, 10). After this message has ended, he received a new message (1:13-19), and this message relates to Jerusalem and Judah. It is important to realize that these two messages are independent of one another.
In Jeremiah 25:1-14 there is one independent message that speaks about all the people of Judah. The verses 25:15-38 contain another message directed to “all the nations to whom I send you.” Both messages are independent of each other, and they are given at different times. This means that that the different parts of 25:1-14 are included in one unit and each expression here must be seen in the light of this independent unit (message), and not in the light of the following message.
They are not 2 independent messages because the 2nd message which begins in v15 starts with
כִּ֣י. The first message transitions to the 2nd. So it is fine for "all these nations round about" to have its antecedant in the 2nd part of the message. The 2nd message explains something in the first message. It explains what will happen to all these nations round about.
R.J. Furuli wrote:3. THE DIFFERENT EXPRESSIONS
a) אֵ֖לֶּה. The demonstrative pronoun must have an antecedent, and it is logical to seek this antecedent in the message where it occurs, and not in another message that Jeremiah had not yet received.
see above that these are not 2 independent messages
R.J. Furuli wrote:b) כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם הָאֵ֖לֶּה. “The people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" (25:2) are plural and would be a natural antecedent to “all these nations.” It is the land of Judah that will be destryed (25:11), and people outside Judah are not mentioned in the independent message (25:1-14)
We know the lands around Judah will also be destroyed by Babylon, and above 25:1-14 is not an independent message from what follows.
R.J. Furuli wrote:c) סָבִ֑יב. As I have shown, this word can be specific (surrounding) and non-specific (round about). It can refer to something around a country, as well as inside a country. In 25:9 the word is ambiguous, and the exact place where “All these nations are” cannot be known. Therefore, the context must decide.
Can you give me a verse where sabib refers to something within a country? There are 338 uses of it, so too much for me to look up now. I don't see that meaning in HALOT. thanks.
R.J. Furuli wrote:4. THE 70 YEARS
The message in 25:1-14 speaks about the condition of Judah as a desolate waste. This deserted condition should last for 70 years, when “these nations” should serve the king of Babylon (25:11). In the other instances where the 70 years are mentioned, they exclusively refer to the Jews, and their return to their land (Jeremiah 29:10, Daniel 9:2, 2 Chronicles 36:21). A prophecy saying that “all nations surrounding Judah” should serve Babylon for 70 years would hardly give any meaning as far as the time is concerned.
All the nations there served Babylon for 70 years. When Cyrus defeated Babylon, those nations no longer served Babylon.
Isa 23:15-17 says Tyre would be forgotten for 70 years. I think this refers to its captivity by Babylon. Ezek 26:7 says God will bring Nebuchnezzar against Tyre.
R.J. Furuli wrote:My conclusion is that linguistically speaking the expression כָּל־הַגּוֹיִ֥ם הָאֵ֖לֶּה סָבִ֑יב is ambiguous. But contextually speaking, there are very good reasons to apply the expression to the three tribes and representatives of the other tribes who lived in Judah and who were taken to Babylon.
With Israel being the major human subject of the OT, and
goim plural being used 432 times, I would expect that if
cal hagoim haela referred to Israel, there would be at least one unambiguous reference to Israel as
goim plural in the OT. The one example of Ezek 2:3 can be easily explained as referring to the 2 nations that Israel had become: Judah and Ephraim, since God refers to them as 2 nations later in Ezek 23:22. The destruction of all these nations round about Israel is explicitly described in the 2nd part of this prophecy, which is not an independent prophecy because it starts with
ki, so the antecedents for all these nations round about is the verses following v15.
Thanks Rolf. I learned a lot trying to answer your points.