Psalm 109:4 B

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kwrandolph
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Psalm 109:4 B

Postby kwrandolph » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:31 pm

This section of the verse, ואני תפלה could have a variety of different meanings, which one makes most sense?

The first word, אני has a few homonyms, or rather homographs—“I”, “ship”, “distress(ed)”. The context rules out “ship” right away, so that leaves the other two.

The second word תפלה also has homographs—“(place of) falling” found in Jeremiah 23:13, and Job 24:12, and “intercession” as a lawyer does for his client, the most common use. This is a noun.

I didn’t find a DSS varient.

A couple of possible readings: “and distressed is my intercession” or “and distressed is my falling down”. The context is that of being attacked by evil-doers.

What do you all think?

Karl W. Randolph.

S_Walch
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Re: Psalm 109:4 B

Postby S_Walch » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:35 pm

kwrandolph wrote:I didn’t find a DSS varient.

The DSS manuscript 4QPsaf actually has a variant, and completely omits ואני תפלה from the verse, giving us "In return for my love they accuse me; and they reward me evil for good, and hatred for my love."

The LXX includes it, as ἐγὼ δὲ προσευχόμην "but I was praying".

Could the meaning (if we're to include it) be "In return for my love they accuse me, even though I was in prayer (for them)" with "for them" being implied?
Last edited by S_Walch on Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ken M. Penner
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Re: Psalm 109:4 B

Postby Ken M. Penner » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:41 am

FWIW,
Joüon and Muraoka wrote:Observation. I. The nominal (substantival) predicate is used in Hebrew in a rather broad sense(). As predicate we find:
1) The noun for the material from which something is made: Ez 41.22 הַמִּזְבֵּחַ עֵץ the altar (was of) wood (cf. § 131a, d); Ps 115.4 עֲצַבֵּיהֶם כֶּ֫סֶף וְזָהָב their idols are silver and gold.
2) The thing contained as predicate of the containing object: Jr 24.2 הַדּוּד אֶחָר תְּאֵנִים טֹבוֹת one of the baskets (was full of) good figs.
3) The measure as predicate of the thing measured: Is 6.3 מְלֹא כל־הארץ כְּבוֹדוֹ lit.: his glory (is) the fullness of the entire earth().
4) The noun מִסְפָּר as predicate of the thing numbered: Jr 2.28 כי מִסְפַּר עָרֶ֫יךָ הָיוּ אֱלֹהֶ֫יךָ for your gods were (like) the number of your cities; 1Sm 6.18.
5) The substantive expressing an abstract quality or a concrete particularity: Ps 19.10 מִשְׁפְּטֵי יהוה אֱמֶת the judgements of Y. (are) truth; Gn 11.1 וַיְהִי כל־הארץ שָׂפָה אֶחָ֑ת the whole earth was (of) the same language (lip); Ezr 10.13 הָעֵת גְּשָׁמִים the season is a rainy season. Cf. a phrase of the type Pr 22.21 אֲמָרִים אֱמֶת truthful sayings (§ 131c); Ps 110.3 עַמְּךָ נְדָבֹת your people are willing; Pr 3.17 וכל־נְתִיבֹתֶיהָ שָׁלוֹם all her paths are peaceful; Ps 109.4 ואני תְפִלָּהI am a man of prayer; Jr 10.10 יהוה אלהים אֱמֶת; Ct 1.15 עֵינַ֫יִךְ יוֹנִים; Ez 2.7 מְרִי הֵ֫מָּה they are a rebellious people || vs. 6 בֵּית מרי המה; Jb 28.28 יִרְאַת אֲדֹנָי היא חָכְמָה וְסוּר מֵרָע בִּינָה the fear of the Lord is wisdom and keeping away from the evil is prudence.
6) The explanation as predicate of the thing explained: Gn 41.26 שֶׁ֫בַע הַשִּׁבֳּלִים הַטֹּבֹת שֶׁ֫בַע שָׁנִים הֵ֫נָּה the seven good ears are seven years.
II. A nominal clause can have an optative sense; cf. § 163b. E.g. Gn 9.26 בָּרוּךְ יהוה Blessed be the Lord parallel to the juxtaposed וִיהִי כְנַ֫עַן עֶ֫בֶד לָ֫מוֹ and let Canaan be slave to him, and two further jussives with positive connotation in the following verse. The optative force is especially conspicuous when the predicate is a passive participle and precedes the subject (see § 155l), though the reverse sequence is also attested, as in Gn 27.29 אֹרְרֶ֫יךָ אָרוּר וּמְבָרֲכֶ֫יךָ בָּרוּךְ ().


Paul Joüon and T. Muraoka, A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew (Roma: Pontificio Istituto Biblico, 2006), 529–530.
Ken M. Penner, Ph.D.
St. Francis Xavier University

kwrandolph
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Re: Psalm 109:4 B

Postby kwrandolph » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:44 pm

Thanks, Ken, for this reference.

However, I see they (the authors) assume that the Masoretic dots are correct. But are they?

Ken M. Penner wrote:FWIW,
Joüon and Muraoka wrote:3) The measure as predicate of the thing measured: Is 6.3 מְלֹא כל־הארץ כְּבוֹדוֹ lit.: his glory (is) the fullness of the entire earth().


In this example, what they call a noun is really a verb.

Though not common, there are other examples where the sentence structure is [verb] [object] [subject]. True, this sentence structure is more common in languages like koiné Greek and Latin, but is not unheard of in Biblical Hebrew as well.

Ken M. Penner wrote:FWIW,
Joüon and Muraoka wrote:5) The substantive expressing an abstract quality or a concrete particularity: Ps 19.10 מִשְׁפְּטֵי יהוה אֱמֶת the judgements of Y. (are) truth; Gn 11.1 וַיְהִי כל־הארץ שָׂפָה אֶחָ֑ת the whole earth was (of) the same language (lip); Ezr 10.13 הָעֵת גְּשָׁמִים the season is a rainy season. Cf. a phrase of the type Pr 22.21 אֲמָרִים אֱמֶת truthful sayings (§ 131c); Ps 110.3 עַמְּךָ נְדָבֹת your people are willing; Pr 3.17 וכל־נְתִיבֹתֶיהָ שָׁלוֹם all her paths are peaceful; Ps 109.4 ואני תְפִלָּהI am a man of prayer; Jr 10.10 יהוה אלהים אֱמֶת; Ct 1.15 עֵינַ֫יִךְ יוֹנִים; Ez 2.7 מְרִי הֵ֫מָּה they are a rebellious people || vs. 6 בֵּית מרי המה; Jb 28.28 יִרְאַת אֲדֹנָי היא חָכְמָה וְסוּר מֵרָע בִּינָה the fear of the Lord is wisdom and keeping away from the evil is prudence.

Paul Joüon and T. Muraoka, A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew (Roma: Pontificio Istituto Biblico, 2006), 529–530.


Some of the examples presented by Joüon and Muraoka are merely verbless clauses, where a “to be” verb is assumed though not expressed.

In this subsection #5 there are two examples where I disagree with Joüon and Muraoka—Psalm 110:3 ”with you is generosity (willingness)” as well as Psalm 109:4 where “a man of” is not in the text, nor does it fit the context. Because of both the context and that the words have homographs, are why I raised the question.

This also illustrates what I often notice among grammarians—the tendency to take what is simple and make it complex. Splitting hairs where is makes no difference in action.

Oh, I noticed one verse they didn’t translate—Song of Songs 1:15 “Yours eyes are doves”. This plural of “dove” יונה is found in six other verses as well.

Thanks again.

Karl W. Randolph.

kwrandolph
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Re: Psalm 109:4 B

Postby kwrandolph » Tue Sep 16, 2014 4:59 pm

S_Walch wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:I didn’t find a DSS varient.

The DSS manuscript 4QPsaf actually has a variant, and completely omits ואני תפלה from the verse, giving us "In return for my love they accuse me; and they reward me evil for good, and hatred for my love."


You’re right, the DSS merely omits that phrase. But I wonder how good a copy it was in that it misspelled other words.

S_Walch wrote:The LXX includes it, as ἐγὼ δὲ προσευχόμην "but I was praying".

Could the meaning (if we're to include it) be "In return for my love they accuse me, even though I was in prayer (for them)" with "for them" being implied?


With the other possibilities, why insist on “intercession”? Tradition?

Karl W. Randolph.

S_Walch
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Re: Psalm 109:4 B

Postby S_Walch » Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:53 pm

kwrandolph wrote:You’re right, the DSS merely omits that phrase. But I wonder how good a copy it was in that it misspelled other words.

Checking through the rest of Psalm 109, the manuscript actually omits several words from other verses in Psalm 109:

v26: הושיעני כחסדך is omitted.
v27: אתה יהוה עשיתה is omitted.

In the other extant verses of the Psalms in 4QPsaf (Psa 22, 107 & the previously unknown Psalms Apostrophe to Zion; Eschatological Hymn; and Apostrophe to Judah), not once does it have omitted words from the verses. Mainly plene spelling and re-arranged words, but none omitted. I don't think that's a coincidence.

The scribe's Vorlage of Psalm 109 probably omitted the words, rather than the scribe being careless.

kwrandolph wrote:With the other possibilities, why insist on “intercession”? Tradition?

I'm not one for tradition, so no, not tradition :)

However, as can be seen from my other posts, I do put a bit more weight on the LXX than most, so the fact that the LXX has it as "prayer" rather than the other possibilities is certainly colouring my choice of translation. Also the fact that v7 also uses תפלה to indicate "prayer".

I personally don't see how either "and distressed is my intercession” or “and distressed is my falling down" make more sense out of it.

If we take "falling down" as the more common translation of "unseemly" or "disgusting", would "as through I (was) unseemly", or even as "And I (am) in disgust" be possible?

Or even perhaps "And I (am) blamed"? (cf. Job 1:24)
Ste Walch

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Re: Psalm 109:4 B

Postby davidedmorn » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:14 pm

The life, the purity, and the teaching of Jesus Christ was the most complete and perfect representation of the things of the eternal world that has been or can be presented to man.
Ten Commandments messages

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SteveMiller
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Re: Psalm 109:4 B

Postby SteveMiller » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:57 pm

Ste,
How do you tell that about the DSS?
I use Logos to look at the DSS conveniently, but I don't see what you see there. Thanks.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

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Re: Psalm 109:4 B

Postby SteveMiller » Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:00 pm

davidedmorn wrote:The life, the purity, and the teaching of Jesus Christ was the most complete and perfect representation of the things of the eternal world that has been or can be presented to man.
Ten Commandments messages


David,
the rules of the forum are that you have to give your 1st and last names in the post.
You can do that easily by adding it to your signature.
You can put your website in your signature also.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

S_Walch
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Re: Psalm 109:4 B

Postby S_Walch » Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:39 pm

SteveMiller wrote:Ste,
How do you tell that about the DSS?
I use Logos to look at the DSS conveniently, but I don't see what you see there. Thanks.

Hi Steve,

It's been a while since the post, so don't quite remember everything about it.

I'm afraid I really am not a fan of the DSSD on Logos - it doesn't format well at all. I prefer to look at the transcriptions provided from The Biblical Qumran Scrolls - https://archive.org/stream/TheBiblicalQ ... 0/mode/2up

(pages 627+ are for the Psalms; 674 has the start of Psa 109 (4QPsaf))
Ste Walch


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