Where is the dot?

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Isaac Fried
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Where is the dot?

Postby Isaac Fried » Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:00 am

The word בִשְׁתִי of Lev. 13:48 is, with an unexpectedly vacant letter T. The letter follows a schwa, which follows a xirik, and should have had a dot (the notorious "dagesh qal") placed inside it. Indeed, the, similarly situated, T in the word פִּשְׁתִּים of the previous verse is pregnant with a tiny, yet clearly visible, dot. True, in verse 49 the word בַשְּׁתִי is also with an empty T, but there the dot, put to call the reader's attention to the patax under the letter B, is already in the shin, and a second dot in the T is unwarranted (incidentally proving that the inner dot had nothing to do with the hardening of the BGDKPT letters.)

So why is there no dot in the letter T of בִשְׁתִי ? Because the xirik under the letter B is not original, but is rather a latter placement by the "Masoretes", who did as they so fit.

But why does the word פִּשְׁתִּים start with a dot? because once upon a time every first letter had such a dot. And why is the letter T of this word with an inner dot? Because it was always there, even way before the "Masoretes" were born.

Isaac Fried Boston University

Isaac Fried
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby Isaac Fried » Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:11 am

it is, of course, saw fit.

Isaac Fried Boston University

ducky
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby ducky » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:25 pm

Hello Isaac,

The reason is that the Sheva in the Shin is a Mobile Sheva. And after a Mobile Sheva, there is no lene Dagesh.

As for the word פשתים...
The Sheva in the Shin is a Quiescent Sheva. And after a Quiescent Sheva, the Lene Dagesh appears.
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Jason Hare
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby Jason Hare » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:26 pm

ducky wrote:The reason is that the Sheva in the Shin is a Mobile Sheva. And after a Mobile Sheva, there is no lene Dagesh.

Except in the word שְׁתַּ֫יִם, of course. ;)
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel

Isaac Fried
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby Isaac Fried » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:58 pm

ducky writes
The reason is that the Sheva in the Shin is a Mobile Sheva. And after a Mobile Sheva, there is no lene Dagesh.

What is the reason that after a "Mobile" Sheva there is no "lene" Dagesh? What is actually the purpose of the "lene" Dagesh?
Why is there no dagesh in the first letter ב of the three words בִשְׁתִי, בְעֵרֶב and בְעוֹר?

Isaac Fried, Boston University

ducky
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby ducky » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:25 pm

Hello Jason,

the word שתים had a few processes that formed it that way.

Here is a possible process:
According to the core שנ, it should have been שִנְתַּיִם
שנ=core; ת=feminine;
and so $intayin>$ittayin
and the T is with Dagesh Forte

and this שתים was compared to the שנים (the masculine form) and was pronounced with a mobile Sheva in the SHin.
And the fact that the T was originally Dageshed, helped the T to keep the sound of "T" even after this mobile Sheva.
But we need to assume that the Dagesh Forte was loosened and there was no doubling of that T.
According to that, the T should be without Dagesh at all (and sound like "TH").
But it could be that the T kept its "T sound" because of its original sound.
and also because of the previous SH letter, which is hard to pronounce the "TH" after SH in Sheva in these kinds of cases.

and check the different behavior between Judges 16:28 and Jonah 4:11.
David Hunter

ducky
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby ducky » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:52 pm

Hello Isaac,

Lene Dagesh represents the original sound of the letter BGDKPT.
Their original sound is always like that (as if they have a Dagesh)

And ask yourself what is the similarity between these six letters/sounds.
the answer is that they are all pronounced without air.
you can hum the sound M (mmm....) because the air is coming from your nose.
But you cannot hum the sound B (bbb....) because you pronounce this sound without taking out air at all.

And what is the difference between a consonant and a vowel?
When you pronounce a consonant, you control the air.
When you pronounce a vowel - the air goes out freely.

And so, these six sounds which are supposed to pronounce with no air (as blocked) acted differently after a vowel.
Why?
because when you pronounce a vowel, the air is out freely, and the people who pronounced a "blocked" consonant right after a vowel, didn't block the air completely (something like the laziness of the mouth), and the extreme act of blocking the air immediately after letting it go out freely was not done.

And so the B was pronounced as a light B (bh) and later to V.
And so the G was pronounced as a light G (Gh) Like the Arabic Ghayin.
And so the D was pronounced as a light D (dh) Like in the word This.
And so the K was pronounced as a light K (kh).
And so the P was pronounced as a light P (ph) and F.
And so the T was pronounced as a light T (th) Like in the word Thing.

And so, Mobile Sheva is a vowel (a short vowel), and these letters are not blocked in the mouth, and therefore there is no lene Dagesh.

As for your other wondering of why there is no Lene Dagesh in the first letter of בעור בשתי בערב
The reason that there is no Lene Dagesh at the Beginning of the word is that it is not considered to be a "beginning of the word" because a "Word" can be "two words" or "tree words".
The previous word before theses words is או
או בשתי
או בעור
או בערב
And these two words are connected and the combinations are considered to be a "one word"
In Hebrew, it is called תבה (teva) (I don't know what is the right English translation).
And so, since this word (או) ends with an opened vowel and also connected to the next word, the letter B (of the next word) is pronounced as V.
Because it comes after an opened vowel (and it doesn't matter if the vowel is in the same specific word, or if the vowel is on the previous word).
David Hunter

Isaac Fried
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby Isaac Fried » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:18 am

ducky wrote
and so $intayin>$ittayin
and the T is with Dagesh Forte

There is no $ittayim in Hebrew, only $TAYIM, and no "Dagesh Forte". The dot in the letter ת of שְׁתַּ֫יִם is a historical redundancy and may be safely ignored. Why it is there, and who inserted it there, is not revealed to me.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

ducky
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby ducky » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:56 am

I didn't say there is a $ittayim in Hebrew.
I tried to show the possible process for this unusual form.
read again what I wrote.

And just a note:
If you'll look at the Samaritan word, it does begin with a syllable "$itt-".
David Hunter

Isaac Fried
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Re: Where is the dot?

Postby Isaac Fried » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:20 pm

ducky wrote
I tried to show the possible process for this unusual form.

So what are, in your estimation, the practical reading implications of this unusual form שְׁתַּ֫יִם. Does the dagesh influence the pronunciation of the initial schwa? Does the dagesh influence the pronunciation of the ת?

Isaac Fried, Boston University


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