אֲתַר Daniel 2:35

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Isaac Fried
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אֲתַר Daniel 2:35

Postby Isaac Fried » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:47 am

We read there
וְכָל אֲתַר לָא הִשְׁתְּכַח לְהוֹן
KJV: "that no place was found for them"
אֲתַר, 'place, site, area, plot, spot, location, region, locale', is of common use now in spoken Hebrew, as in אתר ארכאולוגי 'archeological site', or אתר אינטרנט, 'web site'. It is of the root אתר, a member of the closely-knit root family
אדר, אזר, אסר, אצר, אשר, אתר
עדר, עזר, עטר, עצר, עשר, עתר
תאר

It looks at first surprising that the root אתר and its kin should contain the plurality marker ר, being thus closely related to עדר, 'herd', but we readily realize that location is marked by an aggregate occupying and enclosing its position, clearly setting and defining thereby its borders and limits.
Thus, an עדר, a rich עשיר, herd or flock, remaining packed together אצורים יחד or אסורים יחד or עצורים יחד define the אתר and its עטר, 'circumscribing boundary'.
The verb אִתֵּר is now, 'located', while איתוּראן is a device installed in a car (or on a dog) to help locate it if lost or stolen.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Isaac Fried
Posts: 1498
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: אֲתַר Daniel 2:35

Postby Isaac Fried » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:44 pm

The kindred root עתר (related to עדר, עשר and יתר) is interesting. We encounter it twice in Gen. 25:21
וַיֶּעְתַּר יִצְחָק לַיהוה לְנֹכַח אִשְׁתּוֹ כִּי עֲקָרָה הִוא וַיֵּעָתֶר לוֹ יהוה וַתַּהַר רִבְקָה אִשְׁתּוֹ
KJV: "And Isaac intreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren: and the Lord was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived"
NIV: "Isaac prayed to the Lord on behalf of his wife, because she was childless. The Lord answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant"
In its first occurrence וַיֶּעְתַּר (Qal) seems to mean that Isaac loosened a torrent of words. In the second instance וַיֵּעָתֶר (Niphal) seems to mean 'relented, loosened, softened his stance'.
Another example for עתר as 'multitude' is found in Ezekiel 35:13
וַתַּגְדִּילוּ עָלַי בְּפִיכֶם וְהַעְתַּרְתֶּם עָלַי דִּבְרֵיכֶם
KJV: "Thus with your mouth ye have boasted against me, and have multiplied your words against me"
Also in Jer. 33:6
וְגִלֵּיתִי לָהֶם עֲתֶרֶת שָׁלוֹם וֶאֱמֶת
KJV: "and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth"

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Isaac Fried
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Re: אֲתַר Daniel 2:35

Postby Isaac Fried » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:10 pm

We recall that there is another, kindred, use for עדר, namely, in the sense of breaking up the ground, possibly only locally around the plants, as in Isaiah 5:6
וַאֲשִׁיתֵהוּ בָתָה לֹא יִזָּמֵר וְלֹא יֵעָדֵר וְעָלָה שָׁמִיר וָשָׁיִת
KJV: "And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns"
NIV: "I will make it a wasteland, neither pruned nor cultivated, and briers and thorns will grow there"
The tool for doing that is the מַעְדֵּר = מה-עדר, 'hoe', as in Isaiah 7:25
כֹל הֶהָרִים אֲשֶׁר בַּמַּעְדֵּר יֵעָדֵרוּן לֹא תָבוֹא שָׁמָּה יִרְאַת שָׁמִיר וָשָׁיִת
NIV: " As for all the hills once cultivated by the hoe, you will no longer go there for fear of the briers and thorns"
KJV: "And on all hills that shall be digged with the mattock, there shall not come thither the fear of briers and thorns"

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Isaac Fried
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Re: אֲתַר Daniel 2:35

Postby Isaac Fried » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:14 pm

עדר may also mean (in Nifal form) 'separated, departed, missing, absent', as in Isaiah 59:15
וַתְּהִי הָאֱמֶת נֶעְדֶּרֶת
KJV: "Yea, truth faileth"
NIV: "Truth is nowhere to be found"
Compare: חזר, 'returned', and חסר, 'missing'.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

ducky
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Re: אֲתַר Daniel 2:35

Postby ducky » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:46 am

Isaac

Why don't you link the עדר to עשר (as wealth) - which everything which is a lot - it is hard to find.

the herd is called עדר - and that can be linked to "wealth" (as many sheep)
the one who is נעדר=missing - is like one of the עדר=herd.
ּSince he is one of many, he is hard to find (missing)

And also check the verse of ודבר ה יקר בימים ההם (or something like that)
and see the link between יקר as wealth and יקר as rare
David Hunter

Isaac Fried
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Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: אֲתַר Daniel 2:35

Postby Isaac Fried » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:54 am

ducky says
Why don't you link the עדר to עשר

In the opening post I have actually listed the relatives:
אדר, אזר, אסר, אצר, אשר, אתר
עדר, עזר, עטר, עצר, עשר, עתר

I need to think more on it, but I can not recall a Hebrew root to the effect of "hard to find".
Isaac Fried, Boston University

Isaac Fried
Posts: 1498
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: אֲתַר Daniel 2:35

Postby Isaac Fried » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:00 pm

ducky says
And also check the verse of ודבר ה יקר בימים ההם (or something like that) and see the link between יקר as wealth and יקר as rare

Seems to me that יקר is more in the sense of
אגר, עקר, סכר, סגר, יהר, יגר
(for יגר see Gen. 31:47 וַיִּקְרָא-לוֹ לָבָן יְגַר שָׂהֲדוּתָא וְיַעֲקֹב קָרָא לוֹ גַּלְעֵד), namely, more in the sense of 'hold on to, collect, hoard, shelter, appreciate, be precious, be worthy, value, esteem, be dear, yearn to possess, covet, treasure', than in the vague sense of 'rare, scarce, hard to find'.
1Sam. 3:1 is indeed
וּדְבַר יהוה הָיָה יָקָר בַּיָּמִים הָהֵם אֵין חָזוֹן נִפְרָץ
KJV: "And the word of the Lord was precious in those days; there was no open vision"
NIV: "In those days the word of the Lord was rare; there were not many visions.
See also Prov. 25:17
הֹקַר רַגְלְךָ מִבֵּית רֵעֶךָ פֶּן יִשְׂבָּעֲךָ וּשְׂנֵאֶךָ
KJV: "Withdraw thy foot from thy neighbour's house; lest he be weary of thee, and so hate thee"
NIV: "Seldom set foot in your neighbor’s house—too much of you, and they will hate you"
Also Isaiah 13:12
אוֹקִיר אֱנוֹשׁ מִפָּז
KJV: "I will make a man more precious than fine gold"
NIV: "I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir"

The KJV translations are in my opinion more to the point.
Today we use נדיר for 'rare', the opposite of שכיח or מצוּי, 'common'.

Isaac Fried, Boston University


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