דברות & רפסדות

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Saboi

דברות & רפסדות

Post by Saboi »

דברות & רפסדות are two interesting words for the same thing, but the Lexicon doesn't know what to do with these words and won't admit both are Greek borrowings.

2 Chronicles 2:16
We will cut wood out of Lebanon, as much as thou shalt need: and we will bring it to thee in floats(רפסדות) by sea to Joppa; and thou shalt carry it up to Jerusalem.

1 Kings 5:9
My servants shall bring them down from Lebanon unto the sea: and I will convey them by sea in floats (דברות) unto the place that thou shalt appoint me

דברות = διφθέρας "anything made of leather, boats made of hides, writing-material, at carthage"
רפסדות = ῥαφιδευτός "boats made of hides sewn together"

How these are constructed is explained in Herodotus with the very word.

Herodotus 1.194
Their (Assyrian) boats which ply the river and go to Babylon are all of skins, and round. [2] They make these in Armenia, higher up the stream than Assyria. First they cut frames of willow, then they stretch hides (διφθέρας/דברות) over these for a covering, making as it were a hold; they neither broaden the stern nor narrow the prow, but the boat is round, like a shield. They then fill it with reeds and send it floating down the river with a cargo; and it is for the most part palm wood casks of wine that they carry down.

The lexicon roots דברות to דבר "written word" and this too is explained in Herodotus.

Herodotus 5.58
At this time the Greeks who were settled around them were for the most part Ionians, and after being taught the letters by the Phoenicians, they used them with a few changes of form. In so doing, they gave to these characters the name of Phoenician, as was quite fair seeing that the Phoenicians had brought them into Greece. The Ionians have also from ancient times called sheets of papyrus skins (διφθέρας/דברות), since they formerly used the skins( διφθέραςדברות) of sheep and goats due to the lack of papyrus. Even to this day there are many foreigners who write on such skins( διφθέρας/דברות).

The Phoenicians (cf. Hebrews) wrote on leather-skins (διφθέρας/דברות), the word "דבר" so perhaps "דבר" derives from the writing material. This also roots Hebrew words, such as דִּפְתָּר‎ "account book" and both "Leather" and "Letter". Linear-B "di-pte-ra" > דבר.
Saboi

Re: דברות & רפסדות

Post by Saboi »

2 Chronicles 2:16 & 1 Kings 5:9 are from the context of Ezra 3:7, except Ezra does not mention the means.

Ezra 3:7
They gave money also unto the masons, and to the carpenters; and meat, and drink, and oil, unto them of Zidon, and to them of Tyre, to bring cedar trees from Lebanon to the sea of Joppa, according to the grant that they had of Cyrus king of Persia

2 Chronicles 2:16
Now therefore the wheat, and the barley, the oil, and the wine, which my lord hath spoken of, let him send unto his servants: And we will cut wood out of Lebanon, as much as thou shalt need(צרך): and we will bring it to thee in floats by sea to Joppa; and thou shalt carry it up to Jerusalem

1 Kings 5:9
My servants shall bring them down from Lebanon unto the sea: and I will convey them by sea in floats unto the place that thou shalt appoint me And Solomon gave Hiram twenty thousand measures of wheat for food to his household, and twenty measures of pure oil: thus gave Solomon to Hiram year by year.

In 2 Chronicles 2:16, צרך is χρέος "debt" and Ezra 3:7, כרשיון, the כ is a preposition and the meaning is κατάχρεος "involved in debt, that which is owing' (Tyre & Sidon). Chronicles & Kings mention Hiram III, contemporary to King Cyrus, his tomb was built during the Persian age, still standing and thus these three passages are contemporaneous.

פרס = πυρός γῆ "land of fire"
צדנים = ξάνθον "yellow"
ducky
Posts: 766
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: דברות & רפסדות

Post by ducky »

דברת can be explained from the root דבר which is "leading"
so the דברות are those who take you from place to place.
David Hunter
Saboi

Re: דברות & רפסדות

Post by Saboi »

דברות & רפסדות are very specific words meaning 'boat made of hide" , but no where does דבר mean "leading"
but in Ugarit, it means "pastoral" (of grazing sheep or cattle) compare to דברות "leather skin" (of sheep or cattle) is perhaps the unifying meaning.
Isaac Fried
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: דברות & רפסדות

Post by Isaac Fried »

Lee Mcgee says
The lexicon roots דברות to דבר "written word" and this too is explained in Herodotus.
I wish I could have a word with Herodotus, I would explain to him the whole thing slow and good. I would convince him there and then with utter ease of the foolhardiness of διφθέρας דֹברות "written word". Only a Greek man, devoid of any understanding of the Hebrew language and its root system can make such a silly claim as to דִּבְרָה, 'saying' being a דֹּבְרָה, 'float'. (which is like saying that דַּבֶּשֶת = דְּבָש)
We have discussed this before. The root דבר is of the root family
דבר, זבר, טבר, סבר, צבר, שבר, תבר
צואר
טפר, ספר, צפר, שפר, תפר

as typified by צבר, 'accumulate'. Hence:
דִּבּוּר is 'accumulation of meaningful sounds'
דֶּבֶר, is 'accumulation of blisters'
דֹבֶר is 'holding pen'
דֹּבְרָה is 'accumulation of floating logs'
הַדְבָּרָה is 'accumulation of bodies'

Isaac Fried, Boston University
Saboi

Re: דברות & רפסדות

Post by Saboi »

Greek lost one of its Phoenician consonants, so words appear different, for דבר word is Ϝεπος "word" > אאמר/εἴρω (εἴϝρ- > εἴϝ- εἶπον), cf. dixerit, Verbum.

דברות means "prepared leather, anything made of leather" but in that context, refers to boats made of leather.
Isaac Fried
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: דברות & רפסדות

Post by Isaac Fried »

Lee Mcgee says
דברות means "prepared leather, anything made of leather" but in that context, refers to boats made of leather.
Here is what 1Kings 5:22-23 says
וַיִּשְׁלַח חִירָם אֶל שְׁלֹמֹה לֵאמֹר שָׁמַעְתִּי אֵת אֲשֶׁר שָׁלַחְתָּ אֵלָי אֲנִי אֶעֱשֶׂה אֶת כָּל חֶפְצְךָ בַּעֲצֵי אֲרָזִים וּבַעֲצֵי בְרוֹשִׁים עֲבָדַי יֹרִדוּ מִן-הַלְּבָנוֹן יָמָּה וַאֲנִי אֲשִׂימֵם דֹּבְרוֹת בַּיָּם עַד הַמָּקוֹם אֲשֶׁר תִּשְׁלַח אֵלַי וְנִפַּצְתִּים שָׁם וְאַתָּה תִשָּׂא
NIV: So Hiram sent word to Solomon: “I have received the message you sent me and will do all you want in providing the cedar and juniper logs. My men will haul them down from Lebanon to the Mediterranean Sea, and I will float them as rafts by sea to the place you specify. There I will separate them and you can take them away.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
Saboi

Re: דברות & רפסדות

Post by Saboi »

אני אשימם דברות בים עד־המקום (1 Kings 5:9)
- Sept. ἐγὼ θήσομαι αὐτὰ σχεδίας ἕως τοῦ τόπου

נביאם לך רפסדות על־ים (2 Chronicles 2:16)
- Sept. ἄξομεν αὐτὰ σχεδίαις ἐπὶ θάλασσαν

σχεδία "raft, float" root. עשה-יד "made by hand"

Xenophon, Anabasis 2.4.28
From there they marched four desert stages, twenty parasangs, keeping the Tigris river on the left. Across the river on the first stage was situated a large and prosperous city named Caenae (Gk. Καιναί/קיני) from which the barbarians brought over loaves, cheeses and wine, crossing upon rafts made of skins.

ἐπὶ σχεδίαις διφθερίναις - upon rafts made of skins.

I can't seem to find information regarding Phoenicians building these rafts, only in an Assyrian-Babylonian context, for Xenophon, Anabasis 2.4.28 aligns with Herodotus 1.194 and Anabasis is documenting the period of Cyrus the Younger, around 401 BCE.

דברות/διφθέρας "anything made of leather, boats made of hides, writing-material, at carthage"
רפסדות/ῥαπτός "boats made of hides sewn together"
ducky
Posts: 766
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: דברות & רפסדות

Post by ducky »

Hello

the דבר has the meaning of Leading

therefore the word מדבר which is the דבר in the MQTL form which describes a place
and so, מדבר is the place of leading
and it is based on the fact that this word מדבר was given to the place which they lead the sheep to graze

because the place of grazing was a "public" space (not private) and with no agriculture
and so the people lead their sheep to that lace to graze, and therefore is was called מדבר = a leading place.

Check the Aramaic translation of
Gen. 31:18
וַיִּנְהַג אֶת כׇּל מִקְנֵהוּ
וְדַבַּר יָת כָּל גֵּיתוֹהִי

Ex. 3:1
וַיִּנְהַג אֶת הַצֹּאן אַחַר הַמִּדְבָּר
וְדַבַּר יָת עָנָא לַאֲתַר שְׁפַר רִעְיָא לְמַדְבְּרָא

therefore the link between this root and the grazing sheep

**************************************
And so, דברות can easily be seen also with the same meaning
and I don't say it is a sure thing
but it is surely can be.
David Hunter
Saboi

Re: דברות & רפסדות

Post by Saboi »

אני אשימם דברות בים עד־המקום
- ego conponam ea in ratibus in mari usque ad locum (Vulgate)
- ἐγὼ θήσομαι αὐτὰ σχεδίας ἕως τοῦ τόπου (Septuagnt)

θήσομαι - אשים־לי (Middle Voice)
θήσω - אשים - sinō

In Latin, אשים is sinō "put down", pōnō is po + sinō (מ + אשים) and with עמ/com becomes conpōnō. cf. component.

ratibus "raft, float" , שיט/rătis

מקום/οἴκημα "dwelling-place"
מקום > locum (l=מ) cf. Lodge
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