2Chron 5:9 "it is still there until this day"

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SteveMiller
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2Chron 5:9 "it is still there until this day"

Postby SteveMiller » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:06 pm

2 Chronicles 5:9 And the staves were long, so that the ends of the staves were seen outside the ark before the oracle; but they were not seen without. And there they are to this day.

‎ WTT 2 Chronicles 5:9:
וַֽיַּאֲרִיכוּ֘ הַבַּדִּים֒ וַיֵּרָאוּ֩ רָאשֵׁ֙י הַבַּדִּ֤ים מִן־הָאָרוֹן֙ עַל־פְּנֵ֣י הַדְּבִ֔יר וְלֹ֥א יֵרָא֖וּ הַח֑וּצָה וַֽיְהִי־שָׁ֔ם עַ֖ד הַיּ֥וֹם הַזֶּֽה׃

Almost all translations translate ‎ וַֽיְהִי in this verse as plural "and they are" referring to the staves.

LXX is also plural. Stone Tanach literal orthodox Jewish translation also translates it as "they are".

Only YLT and Goldingay that I have seen translate it in singular "and it is" referring to the ark.

The very similar verse 1Kings 8:8 says ‎ וַיִּ֣הְיוּ instead of וַֽיְהִי .

My question is, Is it permissible to translate וַֽיְהִי as plural? If so, Why?

DSS does not preserve this verse.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

ducky
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Re: 2Chron 5:9 "it is still there until this day"

Postby ducky » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:47 pm

In the parallel verse (1Kings 8:8) it says ויהיו (plural)

When it is plural, you can see it refers to the ark and its staves

and here, in Singular, you can see it refers to the ark
Even though, you can see it as a general meaning which refers to the "picture" itself (the thing).
Or just a general singular which can refer to plural (as we saw in another thread (of yours, I think)
David Hunter

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SteveMiller
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Re: 2Chron 5:9 "it is still there until this day"

Postby SteveMiller » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:21 pm

Thanks David.
That is what I was thinking, that the singular wayehi referred to the whole setup: ark + staves.

But 2Chron was written after the return from Babylon.
The ark was not in the temple at that time.
So I was was thinking that it was referring to the staves still being in the rings of the ark, wherever the ark is hidden.

But could the singular wayehi refer to the 2 staves only, and not include the ark?
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

ducky
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Re: 2Chron 5:9 "it is still there until this day"

Postby ducky » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:37 pm

Basically, Chronicles is a repeat for Kings, and writes the stories again.
It could be that Here, it just copy its source text as it is.
and so, "until this day" refers (at least) to the day of the source text.

By the way, in ancient Jewish books, it was said that the ark was actually sealed by King Yoshiyahu.
And in 2Chronicles 35:3 it says that it was told to the Levites to bring back the ark (after it was removed from its place for "fixing" the place)
And when we read this verse, two questions arise:
1. Why does it even have to say that?
it is clear that the ark should be put back
2. in this verse, it doesn't say clearly to bring it back to its place
but it says to put it back inside the house that Solomon built

and these two questions can lead to the answer that the ark wasn't put back to its regular place, but in another place.
There are a lot of texts about that (and some give more references from the Bible)
it could be that it was in the time of King Menashe who put statues in the temple, and the Levites took the ark out.

So anyway, there are a lot of texts about that
(and one opinion also said that the ark was exiled (as you say)
But other opinions say that it was sealed.
David Hunter

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Re: 2Chron 5:9 "it is still there until this day"

Postby kwrandolph » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:51 pm

This is the second time I try to post this information.

In 1 Kings 8:8, the verb יהיו as a plural is not found. The scrap that has that verse has only part, and a fairly small part, of that verse. It lacks that portion of the verse.

If you use the book on the Biblical texts found at Qumran written by Eugene Charles Ulrich, which I also use, the text between brackets is reconstructed from later texts, not found at Qumran. In 1 Kings 8:8, the portion of the text that would have had the verb יהיו is within brackets, hence missing from the scrap found at Qumran.

Karl W. Randolph.

ducky
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Re: 2Chron 5:9 "it is still there until this day"

Postby ducky » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:42 pm

And what is the point?
Do you claim that since this part is not readable in the Qumarnic scroll, then what?

also, there is no point to go to the Qumran in these kinds of cases, and that is for two reasons:
1. Chronicles Book is like a rewrite of Kings (and more), and even though most of the verses are the same, there are changes as adding words, changing words, changing the style and so on. And so we see this many times and it shouldn't "surprise us".
Example of the same verse with a change of singular/plural:
1Kings 8:15 - ובידו
2Chrinicles 6:4 - ובידיו
There are many little differences in many styles.

2. the other reason is that one needs to understand that the relationship between the Qumranic biblical texts and the Biblical text is the exact relationship between Chronicles and Kings.
such as Chronicles used to change styles and words (sometimes) accroding to its era style, so does the Qumran.
The Qumranic text didn't secret the text itself (since we see it uses a lot of vowels to help the reading)
Also, it used to change sometimes old words (or old-style) to fit its "modern" times.
And also, used to write words in the manner of its times.
(and that can be studied by examining the other Hebrew text from the same/close era)
And so, in these kinds of cases, there is no need to focus on the Qumranic text.
David Hunter

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SteveMiller
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Re: 2Chron 5:9 "it is still there until this day"

Postby SteveMiller » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:23 pm

Something is wrong with the bheb site. This is my 3rd attempt to post.

Thanks David! I had forgotten about 2Chronicles 35:3. It seems that the Levites had hidden the ark during the reign of Manasseh or maybe Amon.

Karl,
1Ki 8:8 is clearly ויהיו in the Leningrad Codex. The last phrase, "And they are there until this day" is missing from LXX though.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)

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Re: 2Chron 5:9 "it is still there until this day"

Postby Kirk Lowery » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:39 am

Testing the posting problem...
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Re: 2Chron 5:9 "it is still there until this day"

Postby Kirk Lowery » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:40 am

Okay, I had the same issue: third time was the charm....investigating...
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Re: 2Chron 5:9 "it is still there until this day"

Postby Kirk Lowery » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:40 am

Please report continued additional problems posting...
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