Masoretes and their lack of knowledge?

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kwrandolph
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Re: Masoretes and their lack of knowledge?

Post by kwrandolph »

Galena wrote:Psalm 22:17
Having said that, I would like some scholarly un-prejudicial criticism of what to date is the most mature counter argument that I can find. I want to know what arguments there are, what critique can be supplied against the following paper, link provided. http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/pierce.html My purpose here is not to argue back, since I have no authority nor skills to do this, I will simply read all that anybody says, and copy it to my personal library for referencing in the future.
Kindest regards
Chris
Chris:

If this is your main argument, it has problems.

The reasons he gives that the reading of “they pierced” is false starts with “The Hebrew Text Behind the King James Version”. That is completely irrelevant, and that he starts with it, showing that he thinks it is most important, makes the rest of his arguments suspect, at least.

In other words, he has started with the presumption that a certain ancient translation (KJV) is perfect, or at least its sources, and that everything else is to be measured against it. He has started with a thesis, then marshals evidence to support it, which is working backwards.

He admits that the Nahal Heber scrap unambiguously has the verb כארו, but then he claims “has no known meaning and may actually be meaningless.” That’s an argument from ignorance, a logical fallacy. When the LXX translators, who didn’t have the tools that we have today, came across a word they didn’t know, they then guessed, and in this case guessed wrongly.

Particularly damning to his argument is this paragraph: “A look at the table above also shows the probable cause of the variant: the two words differ only in the final alphabet, the yod of kaari has been changed into the vav of kaaru (or vice versa). Even someone uninitiated with the Hebrew alphabet can see how easy it is to mistake a yod for the slightly longer vav. We know that mistakes of graphical confusion like these did happen and were quite common in the ancient Hebrew manuscripts.” Further he admits that some other manuscripts have כארו so that the Nahal Heber scrap is not the only evidence.

The next paragraph he even makes the argument that just because a majority of surviving manuscripts have a certain reading, that does not automatically mean that they are correct.

Therefore, by his own arguments, כארו could be the correct reading. In other words, he contradicts himself.

Then the author references “P. Kyle McCarter, Jr. in his book Textual Criticism: Recovering the Text of the Hebrew Bible [47] listed the following rules used by textual critics:

”The more difficult reading is preferable: in other words ancient scribes tend to see what they expected to see. Thus the more familiar reading is more often the one that is secondary. Of course, this does not apply to obvious nonsense: "The more difficult reading is not to be preferred when it is garbage."”

The word כארי in this context is garbage. This is an argument against him.

Too often following this rule ends up with garbage. Especially when it comes to following the Masoretic points—all too often the underlying consonantal text has a clear meaning, the points making a mess of things.

“The shorter reading is preferable: scribes tend to expand an ancient text-this arises from their concern to preserve the text as fully as possible thus causing them to keep later glosses, duplications and explanations in the text.”

Irrelevant in this case.

“The reading should be appropriate for its context”

That’s my strongest argument that כארו is the correct reading.

“Be suspicious of readings that "improve" on the text: Readings that offer stylistic improvements, modernize, conform the text to more familiar norms and that resolve contradictions are suspect.”

This rule needs to be taken on a case by case basis. The reading that “improves” on the text may be the correct one and the more difficult reading a “typo”, or it may be the other way around. An example is the reading of כרו—the medieval reading is “to dig”, but the Biblical meaning is “to furnish”, which in the case of a well involves digging, but in other things furnished no digging was involved. Presumably the translators of the LXX came across כארו, didn’t know what it meant, so treated is as a misspelling for כרו which already had changed its meaning to “to dig”. כארי results in a nonsense text. כארו leaves us scratching our heads as to what it means.

A possible meaning for כאר is “to deform” which also fits Amos 8:8 and possibly Isaiah 38:13.

Most of the article is irrelevant to the question as to what is the correct reading of this verse.

Karl W. Randolph.
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Galena
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Re: Masoretes and their lack of knowledge?

Post by Galena »

Karl Said:
Presumably the translators of the LXX came across כארו, didn’t know what it meant, so treated is as a misspelling for כרו which already had changed its meaning to “to dig”. כארי results in a nonsense text. כארו leaves us scratching our heads as to what it means.
I know I said I would not respond but I wish to clarify some things here please. כָּאֲרִי as a verb would then have to be a qal participle from a root כאר which is not listed anywhere but I suppose that means nothing, though I would have expected this to be listed if translators wanted to back this claim up as evidence of a root? How do we explain the aleph if the word is supposed to be כארו?

Another thing that bothers me חלל I would have expected that if David really meant unambiguously to mean without a doubt the word 'pierced', then his choice of words was extremely ambiguous bordering on the misleading? this :חלל was a better word?

The whole context of the psalm is about wounding, I think I mentioned this before, threats, growls, shouts, roars, but no physical harm, so any idea of 'pierced' seems to come against the context?

I am not arguing anymore for a masoretic rendering, just clarity on the opposing side is all I am seeking.

Kind regards
Chris
Chris Watts
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Galena
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Re: Masoretes and their lack of knowledge?

Post by Galena »

Galena wrote:Karl Said:
Presumably the translators of the LXX came across כארו, didn’t know what it meant, so treated is as a misspelling for כרו which already had changed its meaning to “to dig”. כארי results in a nonsense text. כארו leaves us scratching our heads as to what it means.
I know I said I would not respond but I wish to clarify some things here please. כָּאֲרִי as a verb would then have to be a qal participle from a root כאר which is not listed anywhere but I suppose that means nothing, though I would have expected this to be listed if translators wanted to back this claim up as evidence of a root? How do we explain the aleph if the word is supposed to be כארו? congealed into כרו.

Another thing that bothers me חלל I would have expected that if David really meant unambiguously to mean without a doubt the word 'pierced', then his choice of words was extremely ambiguous bordering on the misleading? this :חלל was a better word?

The whole context of the psalm is about wounding, I think I mentioned this before, threats, growls, shouts, roars, but no physical harm, so any idea of 'pierced' seems to come against the context?

I am not arguing anymore for a masoretic rendering, just clarity on the opposing side is all I am seeking.

Kind regards
Chris
Chris Watts
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Masoretes and their lack of knowledge?

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Chris,

I have read that they say that the verb is KAF RESH HAY, so there was probably a verb form with KAF VAV RESH, and then they say that the VAV in the second form can become an ALEF in some verbs. I think they see it as mistakes or the influence of Aramaic in some way.

They give examples of similar changes in Hosea 10:14 where the verb KOOF VAV MEM gets an ALEF in the middle and in Zechariah 14:10 where RESH VAV MEM gets an ALEF in the middle too. They also give examples of nouns with VAV in the middle that can also be spelled with an ALEF in the middle like the word BET VAV RESH which can be spelled BET ALEF RESH.

They basically assume the existence of a verb form based on another verb that they know exists, and then they say that that verb can also change because there are a few examples of that happening.

Kenneth Greifer
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kwrandolph
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Re: Masoretes and their lack of knowledge?

Post by kwrandolph »

Galena wrote:
Galena wrote:Karl Said:
Presumably the translators of the LXX came across כארו, didn’t know what it meant, so treated is as a misspelling for כרו which already had changed its meaning to “to dig”. כארי results in a nonsense text. כארו leaves us scratching our heads as to what it means.
I know I said I would not respond but I wish to clarify some things here please. כָּאֲרִי as a verb would then have to be a qal participle from a root כאר which is not listed anywhere but I suppose that means nothing, though I would have expected this to be listed if translators wanted to back this claim up as evidence of a root? How do we explain the aleph if the word is supposed to be כארו?
As כארו there’s no problem at all. Just because some lexicographers don’t recognize it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
Galena wrote: congealed into כרו.
This I already said is wrong.

I am probably more conservative than the Masoretes in one respect—I absolutely, positively, refuse to change the consonantal text unless there’s good evidence for it. The Masoretes at times through their points indicate that they thought that the consonantal text is wrong.

For example, there was the proposed root רהה that is used only in Isaiah 44:8. The context indicates that it has something to do with fear. In fact, it’s used in a phrase where ירא is usually used. I refused to reconsider its existence until I found that in the DSS ירא is used instead. I now list it as a typo for ירא which was suspected before, but with the DSS there’s evidence to back it up.
Galena wrote:Another thing that bothers me חלל I would have expected that if David really meant unambiguously to mean without a doubt the word 'pierced', then his choice of words was extremely ambiguous bordering on the misleading? this :חלל was a better word?
David didn’t mean “pierce”, that’s why he used a different word.
Galena wrote:The whole context of the psalm is about wounding, I think I mentioned this before, threats, growls, shouts, roars, but no physical harm, so any idea of 'pierced' seems to come against the context?
Not true. Verse 14 the lions tear as at prey. Verse 15 bones are pulled out of joint. Those are certainly physical and harm.
Galena wrote:I am not arguing anymore for a masoretic rendering, just clarity on the opposing side is all I am seeking.

Kind regards
Chris
We need to take the evidence as it is.

The MT has כארי which is a noun, other MSS including the oldest one found have כארו which is a verb. Early translations have a verb.

The presence of the aleph in כאר can’t be explained away. As a result, it cannot be from the root כרה. Further כרה in Biblical times meant “to furnish, provide” therefore the LXX translation is wrong, as well as all translations that are based on the LXX.

Grammatically it has a syntax that needs a verb.

Context it is in a group of short sentences, all of which have verbs.

The MT reading is “garbage”

A participle כאר is found in Amos 8:8

There is a verb in a cognate language with the meaning of “deform, distort” which fits both here and the Amos verse.

My conclusion is that כארו is correct, and that it means to deform, distort.

Karl W. Randolph.
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Galena
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Re: Masoretes and their lack of knowledge?

Post by Galena »

Hi Karl, well I was getting hopeful that I could be put out of my misery with this situation when I read Amos 8:8. I hate to do this but I can see absolutely not one milligram of evidence that the word כאר in this passage (neither the contracted nor the normal form) is a participle verb. Neither Davidson, nor Gesenius, nor even-shoshan, neither any single English translation mentions this. Now that is a lot of evidence against your theory; and I know now how much you like the word 'evidence' :D

I also typed this word into torah search engine which never usually fails to turn up something even if it is irrelevant and Nope - Niks, nothing, nichts!

Also what is this cognate language where you found the root?

On the good side I actually can go along with the idea that 'deformed' 'distorted' is a better translation, it makes more sense seeing that it was David who was talking about his experiences and he would not have any reason to use that word 'pierced'. (maybe hiding running crawling bruising scratches knocks and bumps would have taken their toll on his hands and his feet, especially since they wore sandals and not army boots in those days). But and this is a big but, can you prove that word deformed and כאר from anywhere because I can not find it.

Kind regards
chris
Chris Watts
Kenneth Greifer
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Re: Masoretes and their lack of knowledge?

Post by Kenneth Greifer »

Chris,

The explanation I gave you is the one in most books and articles by people who believe that kaf alef resh is a verb. Karl's idea is about Amos 8:8 is unique I think.

Also, food for thought, if people wore armor, then maybe only their hands and feet would be exposed, but I don't think David's feet and hands were hurt.

Kenneth Greifer
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Isaac Fried
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Re: Masoretes and their lack of knowledge?

Post by Isaac Fried »

There is a כער in post-biblical Hebrew, meaning 'deform, mar, damage, disfigure'. It is in common use now for 'ugly, unsightly', opposite to יפה, 'good looking, attractive'. It is related to קער and גער in the sense of 'hollow, poke, dent'.
Nevertheless, I don't think there ever was a כארו in Hebrew. I prefer the verse as it is with כארי.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
kwrandolph
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Re: Masoretes and their lack of knowledge?

Post by kwrandolph »

Galena wrote:Neither Davidson, nor Gesenius, nor even-shoshan, neither any single English translation mentions this. Now that is a lot of evidence against your theory; and I know now how much you like the word 'evidence' :D
None of those is evidence. They’re all commentary. Did you open Tanakh and look there?
Galena wrote:I also typed this word into torah search engine which never usually fails to turn up something even if it is irrelevant and Nope - Niks, nothing, nichts!
What “torah search engine”? I type it into the search engine on my computer with both Aleppo Codex and WLC, and it turns up every time.
Galena wrote:Also what is this cognate language where you found the root?
I was told on this forum years ago from others on the list that it is found in Akkadian medicinal texts referring to something that deforms the body.
Galena wrote:On the good side I actually can go along with the idea that 'deformed' 'distorted' is a better translation, it makes more sense seeing that it was David who was talking about his experiences and he would not have any reason to use that word 'pierced'. (maybe hiding running crawling bruising scratches knocks and bumps would have taken their toll on his hands and his feet, especially since they wore sandals and not army boots in those days). But and this is a big but, can you prove that word deformed and כאר from anywhere because I can not find it.
David was not talking about himself here, rather he was talking about someone else.
Galena wrote:Kind regards
chris
Am I correct in the pattern that seems to be emerging here?

When I look for evidence here, I am looking in the text of Tanakh itself. That is my number one and often only source of evidence. However I recognize that people have corrupted the text over time, mostly inadvertent mistakes, so I’m willing to look at different texts on difficult passages to see if there’s evidence of textual corruption that causes the difficulty.

When you look for evidence, you look to what others say about Tanakh, not Tanakh itself.

Am I correct in this assessment?

Karl W. Randolph.
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Re: Masoretes and their lack of knowledge?

Post by Galena »

I just examined "Nahal Hever" scroll relevant to this thread from the best image from the web that I could find. I have to say that I was surprised that so many people could be adamant about its authority, in fact I am now convinced that this is not conclusive evidence. Three reasons:
1. The letter that everyone says is a vav is dubious, I looked at two other yods and a vav on the same line, these two vavs are quite different in their style; unless I saw more of the document I can not comment but I was shocked at the badly written vav, its top curve bit is exactly the same as a yod as if someone just lengthened the line a bit, and it is not full down.
2. The author of this sentence was clearly careless, he mispelled hands and made it feminine. He could easily have simply added a vav for the same reason he added the Heh to hands.
3. This document was composed between 50 and 130 AD as I have read, so the septuagint is more convincing due to its pre-christian era.

As for the septuagint is it or is it not true that It is universally accepted that the rabbis who created the original Septuagint only translated the Five Books of Moses, and nothing more. Is this confirmed by Aristeas, the Talmud, Josephus, the Church fathers, (though I am aware that the Aristeas letter has been reported to be a forgery? - I do not know).

Kenneth I am sorry, I can not accept that in this word the aleph was originally a vav. David had Two commonly known words for pierce =דקר חלל I do not know if there are any more. 'Dug' is too vague too ridiculous a translation bordering on absurd, (I want to keep this short so not quoting all the hebrew references to this latter verb).

The only alternative that I am considering is Karl's at this moment, if he explains his hypothesis from the grammar perspective.


I am left with three options::

a) maligned, deformed, a verb where the root is attested to a cognate language, but this would beg the most important issue as to why David chose it.
b) leave it unchanged, and accept that this is a rhetorical device used by David to alert us to his sense of suddenness of panic or fear, or abruptness designed to help us feel the sense of confusion he must have felt by leaving us with such an ambiguously seemingly non-sensical sentence, or as I prefer to consider it - a sentence without a verb - IE a moment where there is no movement forward, and David intended his readers to experience this by using a literary device of absence (used in other scriptures of which I have two examples).
c) translate this verse: ...as a lion at my feet and my hands.... "at" assumed of course.

Kind regards
chris
Chris Watts
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