Re: Dan 9:26-27 antecedent of He shall confirm a covenant
Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:58 pm
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David,ducky wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:07 pm Hi Kenneth,
What you say is basically right.
each one can see the word שבועים and see it as sevens of days, sevens of months, or sevens of years.
The mix of "ot" and "eem" is nothing.
it is understood as "years" because of the context.
Since we saw in verse 2 that Daniel counts the Years, and also, the verse continues to talk about the 70 Years of Jeremiah's prophecy...
So it seems that when Gabriel talks about the "70" (as 70X70), it keeps the number in the same manner - which is "years".
Do you have any quotations of Cyrus’ command that includes the building of Jerusalem? The only quotes of Cyrus’ command that I found are in Ezra 1:2 and 2 Chronicles 36:23 and neither includes the rebuilding of Jerusalem.SteveMiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pmI do not follow you here, Karl.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pmReally? Seeing as the Jeremiah prophesies cited above lack any mention of rebuilding Jerusalem, how would he see Cyrus’ proclamation as a start of the 70 sevens prophesy? Especially, according to Ezra, Cyrus’ proclamation extended only to the rebuilding of the temple which included some support structures?SteveMiller wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:57 pm Cyrus' proclamation came shortly after this, and it was a monumental miracle.
Daniel would understand this as the beginning of the 70 weeks.
Cyrus' proclamation included the building of Jerusalem.
That still leaves the problems of the quotations and dates.SteveMiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm The execution of that part of his proclamation was slow, but Daniel 9:25 says "from the going forth of the word", not from the execution of it.
Aren’t you jumping to conclusions here?SteveMiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm When Gabriel tells Daniel that there will be a word coming to return and to restore Jerusalem, Daniel would recognize Cyrus' miraculous decree as that word.
That still doesn’t say that he assumed that Jerusalem would be rebuilt at that time.SteveMiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pmDaniel says in 9:2 that he understood from Jeremiah's prophesy the time is now to return to Jerusalem.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pmWhere in Jeremiah’s prophesy?SteveMiller wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:57 pm
Daniel does not ask, When will Jerusalem be built? He already knows that from Jeremiah's prophecy.
No it doesn’t, especially not the history recorded in Ezra, Nehemiah and 2 Chronicles.SteveMiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm I think it is very strong that Daniel was to understand what the word to return and to rebuild Jerusalem would be.
That word would be in his lifetime.
According to the Isaiah, Cyrus did command the rebuilding of the city. That trumps any recorded history for you and me.
There are problems with this argument. 1) It’s outside Tanakh. 2) We’re dealing with different languages. 3) Even in Greek, the “after” is not clear. Rather “the third day” fits Greek usage.SteveMiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pmI don't think that is always true for a case like this. אחר an event would mean "after that event", yes. But אחר a time unit could include in the last part of that time unit. In the NT, Jesus said he would rise after 3 days, and also rise on the 3rd day. So "after 3 days" can mean "on the 3rd day" at least in Greek and English.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pmThe text doesn’t say that. Rather it says that after the 62 sevens, in other words, during the 63rd seven, that Messiah would be killed (cut off). Or if you say 7 + 62 = 69, then after the 69th seven, during the 70th seven is when Messiah would be cut off. אחר when preceding an event refers to afterwards, following.SteveMiller wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:57 pm Jesus' ministry was less than 7 years. So His ministry started in the 69th week and ended at the end of the 69th week.
Genesis 7:10 doesn’t say “after seven days”. ויהי לשבעת הימיםSteveMiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm When, for example, Gen 7:10 says "after 7 days", it doesn't necessarily mean on the 8th day, but may mean on the 7th day.
With no linguistic basis for this default position, why defend it? The ו merely indicates that we’re dealing with another, separate time period.SteveMiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pmThis passage is all about 70 weeks. And then inside the prophesy we have 7 and 62 and 1 weeks, which added together = 70.kwrandolph wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm I haven’t given an interpretation of the passage, other than noting that the last verse and a half fit the description of the Roman suppression of the Jewish revolt. I see nothing in the passage that indicates that the 490 years are anything other than one unit not to be split. I see nothing in the passage that connects it with Cyrus or Daniel. I see nothing in the passage that the two time periods in verse 25 must be consecutive. Those are my conclusions based on linguistic analysis.
The default position should be that the 3 numbers of weeks given do not overlap, but add up to the 70 weeks.
The 70 sevens (490 years) is concurrent with all three of the subdivisions.SteveMiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm If you are going to make any of these 3 divisions concurrent or overlap, the burden of proof is on you to say why the alternative is impossible.
Concerning the use of the word “anointed” משיח, it is used of several people, including national leaders like King Saul, Cyrus, religious leaders like the priests, and one called simply משיח. The one who is called anointed may not even be Jewish nor know the Lord, as in the case of Cyrus. נגיד implies a national, political leader. So the משיח נגיד implies a political, national leader anointed by God. I would suggest that the political, national leader in verse 25 was Alexander the Great, who was born 49 years after Nehemiah rebuilt Jerusalem’s walls.SteveMiller wrote: ↑Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:44 pm You could say the same to me about putting a gap between the 69th and 70th week.
Thanks Karl. As always, I learn a lot from you.
You mentioned Daniel 10:2-3 about "the 3 weeks (of) days", and you seem to suggest that "days" is there to show that it does not refer to "weeks of years." From my research, the word "days" there could mean that he didn't eat certain food for three weeks during the daytime or it could mean "annually." The word "days" is used to mean "annually" in some quotes like 1 Samuel 2:19 and maybe Judges 17:10. Usually, it says "from days to days" quotes like 1 Samuel 1:3. Some quotes say "two years (of) days" like Genesis 41:1 and 2 Samuel 13:23.ducky wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:36 pm But the context does talk about the 70 as 70 years.
This is what Daniel looked at, and this is when Gabriel came to him.
And when Gabriel told him about the "70" we need to assume that they are "talking in the same language" and there is not a "Switch" in the "way of thinking".
It is hard to see it as if suddenly there was a strange switch like that.
Also, later in this book, when the word שבועים comes to represent circles of seven says - it is written ימים=days in a clear way (and it happens twice).
*
Also, the last part talks about 1-seven (week) and a half of a week.
So do you think that it talks about 7 days - and 3.5 days?
That is an interesting question, Kenneth.Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:44 am If Daniel meant 3 weeks of days in Daniel 10:2-3, he could have used the feminine plural form instead of 3 weeks masculine plural with the word days. There are a few quotes in the Hebrew Bible that say two years days for some reason. I could give the quotes, but not now. I have to go now.
Steve,SteveMiller wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:20 pmThat is an interesting question, Kenneth.Kenneth Greifer wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:44 am If Daniel meant 3 weeks of days in Daniel 10:2-3, he could have used the feminine plural form instead of 3 weeks masculine plural with the word days. There are a few quotes in the Hebrew Bible that say two years days for some reason. I could give the quotes, but not now. I have to go now.
Your post made me think:
1) The use of sevens of days in Dan 10 may be because the 3 sevens of days in Dan 10 were not Sunday - Saturday weeks, but had a different starting point. That seems to be the case in Lev 12:5 where dual plural form is used. Lev 12:5 is the only other place I know where weeks are not Sunday-Saturday.
2) The Angel Gabriel used the unusual word shavuim in Dan 9.
Then Daniel used it in his description of his semi-fast in Dan 10.
I would think that Daniel's use of shavuim in ch 10 means that he was praying regarding the 70 shavuim revealed by Gabriel in the previous chapter. So then the angel's long message in chs 11-12 gives details of the 70 sevens in ch 9.
I don't know how the 2 might relate.