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Zechariah 4:10 eyes or pairs of eyes

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:33 pm
by Kenneth Greifer
Does Zechariah 4:10 say seven eyes or seven pairs of eyes or seven "facets" like some translations say? The word is spelled ayin yud nun yud mem in Zechariah 4:10. Also, Zechariah 3:9 mentions a stone with 7 eyes or pairs of eyes or facets.

Re: Zechariah 4:10 eyes or pairs of eyes

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:28 am
by ducky
Hello

The eyes parallel to the candles which were seven and so the simple ways it to say seven

Re: Zechariah 4:10 eyes or pairs of eyes

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:45 am
by Kenneth Greifer
I thought the word "eye" is feminine, so the word in Zechariah 4:10 is plural or the dual ending because it is yud mem. That is why I thought it says "pairs of eyes" or "eyes."

Re: Zechariah 4:10 eyes or pairs of eyes

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:23 am
by Jason Hare
If you had an accident, you might have one eye (עין אחת) in your head. Normally, people have two eyes (שתי עיניים). If we mention שבע עיניים, it is seven eyes (not seven pairs of eyes). We would say that as seven pairs of eyes (שבעה זוגות עיניים).

Re: Zechariah 4:10 eyes or pairs of eyes

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:25 am
by Jason Hare
ducky wrote:Hello

The eyes parallel to the candles which were seven and so the simple ways it to say seven


Does that bring to mind the eye of Sauron?

Re: Zechariah 4:10 eyes or pairs of eyes

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:53 am
by ducky
The word עין is indeed come in a feminine gender
its form, however, is masculine

and notice that the form is not parallel to the gender

take, for example, the word אבן=stone
its form, and also its plural form,אבנים, is masculine
but its gender is feminine
so you would say אבן גדולה a big stone
and the adjective גדולה is feminine

Also, some words can get two plural forms
and here is an example about a construct state plural form

the word נשים=women in a plural form of a construct state can be נשי=neshe and also נשות=neshot
the word שנים=years (feminine gender) can come as שני=shene and also as שנות=shenot

**
Also, the dual form, such as עינים is not always about "two"
I can say three עיניים as three eyes because it acts also as plural (and more)

******
Hi Jason, I don't know what Sauron is
I checked in Wiki and I found out it was a character from a TV-Show which I didn't see
So I don't know about it

**
if it interesting you, you can read the opinion of Josephus about the candles and what they come to represent
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2850/285 ... k52HCH0005
Book 5, Chapter 5

Re: Zechariah 4:10 eyes or pairs of eyes

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:02 am
by Isaac Fried
The prophet Zechariah has a thing with אֶבֶן, 'stone', what is it? What is this stone with seven "eyes" שִׁבְעָה עֵינָיִם? I wonder.
Here are the places he recalls אֶבֶן
Zechariah 3:9
כִּי הִנֵּה הָאֶבֶן אֲשֶׁר נָתַתִּי לִפְנֵי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ עַל אֶבֶן אַחַת שִׁבְעָה עֵינָיִם הִנְנִי מְפַתֵּחַ פִּתֻּחָהּ נְאֻם יהוה
Zechariah 4:7
מִי אַתָּה הַר הַגָּדוֹל לִפְנֵי זְרֻבָּבֶל לְמִישֹׁר וְהוֹצִיא אֶת הָאֶבֶן הָרֹאשָׁה תְּשֻׁאוֹת חֵן חֵן לָהּ
Zechariah 4:10
כִּי מִי בַז לְיוֹם קְטַנּוֹת וְשָׂמְחוּ וְרָאוּ אֶת הָאֶבֶן הַבְּדִיל בְּיַד זְרֻבָּבֶל שִׁבְעָה אֵלֶּה עֵינֵי יהוה הֵמָּה מְשׁוֹטְטִים בְּכָל הָאָרֶץ
Zechariah 5:8
וַיֹּאמֶר זֹאת הָרִשְׁעָה וַיַּשְׁלֵךְ אֹתָהּ אֶל תּוֹךְ הָאֵיפָה וַיַּשְׁלֵךְ אֶת אֶבֶן הָעוֹפֶרֶת אֶל פִּיהָ
Zechariah 12:2
וְהָיָה בַיּוֹם הַהוּא אָשִׂים אֶת יְרוּשָׁלִַם אֶבֶן מַעֲמָסָה לְכָל הָעַמִּים כָּל עֹמְסֶיהָ שָׂרוֹט יִשָּׂרֵטוּ וְנֶאֶסְפוּ עָלֶיהָ כֹּל גּוֹיֵי הָאָרֶץ

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: Zechariah 4:10 eyes or pairs of eyes

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:48 pm
by ducky
Some say that the first three occurrences of stones are the symbol of the same stone
but some have other ways

the two others are surely not connected

**
and last note about the gender of עין
in this case, it writes שבעה עינים as treating the עין in a masculine way

Re: Zechariah 4:10 eyes or pairs of eyes

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:00 pm
by Isaac Fried
Yes, but what stone is it in Zechariah 3:9 that has seven "eyes"? And what is God promising to further do to her. I am perplexed.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: Zechariah 4:10 eyes or pairs of eyes

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:45 pm
by ducky
it is the upper stone (אבן הראשה) that is also mentioned in 4:7) which symbolize the finishing of the building of the temple

and the על אבן אחת שבעה עינים can firstly be understood as a symbol of God "keeping an eye" on it
and we cannot know what signs were on it
some say that it was 7 little circles (the letter Ayin was written as "o")
or maybe seven little images of eyes

in this time, the culture of the Babylonian and Assyrian was already known well
and Zakariah's vision may also be influenced by these cultures which they used to have seven little circles which represent seven stars which they saw as symbols of gods.

and if you would read the Malbim (I guess you're Jewish?), then he said that it was seven stars.

but who really can know?

**
by the way, notice that עבדי צמח that is written as the end of the previous verse is seven letters