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Re: tsere hinting to a hireq

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:09 pm
by ducky
Hello Isaac

As you already know, the study of Hebrew grammar is based on the system of three-letters roots.

But there are other old theories that see it different (which I tend to agree with them more).
And already in the 10th century, Menahem ben Saruq saw the roots as three, two, and even one letter.
And also Rabeni Tam had a system that in some cases, builds the roots from one letter.

the theory that you wrote above (I didn't read the link yet, but I can understand it from the words you wrote) is also based on a switch between consonants.
I can't say that I agree with all of the parallelism you show in the roots, but I surely agree with the core of your method.

Anyway, even though it seems that all of these theories are different, they don't really contradict each other, but they are just different stages in the evolution of the roots in the natural language (which happens in all of the Semitic languages).

Re: tsere hinting to a hireq

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:40 pm
by Isaac Fried
Isaac Fried wrote
I can, indeed, see how some people may slur an emphatic "i" into an indefinite "e" or "ei".

Indeed, it is common now in spoken Hebrew to turn Hifil into Hefil, particularly for a repeated xireq, for example
הִגִּישׁ -> הֵגִיש
הִשִּׂיג -> הֵשִיג

and so for הִכִּיר, הִפִּיל, הִגִּיעַ, הִבִּיט, הִבִּיע
Happening at "proto-Semitic" it is a "historical process", but now it is a mere "mistake", which grieving Hebrew teachers swore to eradicate.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: tsere hinting to a hireq

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:43 am
by ducky
The reason that some people do it (in the example that you gave) is not because of a natural link between I and E but it because of analogy to other forms of Hiphil that uses the Tsere:
הבין הרים הקים and so on.

so people sometimes switch between the forms and pronounce I as E or the opposite.

and it happens in the participles as well between A and I because we have the forms that use A, like:
מכיר מציב and so on.
and we have the forms that use E, like:
מבין מעיר and so on.

So it is not because of a natural switch between the vowels, but it is just because of an analogy between the two forms of Hiphil.
(the two forms is based on the forms of the roots)

Re: tsere hinting to a hireq

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:54 pm
by Isaac Fried
ducky writes
So it is not because of a natural switch between the vowels, but it is just because of an analogy

I myself comfortably say הֵגִיש with a tsere instead of the "correct" הִגִּישׁ with a xireq, not because of any analogies (most people would not know, even intuitively, what this analogy is all about), but because I find it easier, and because I have never encountered a misunderstanding about this pronunciation. It is a common practice now.
This is what happens now in front of our own eyes: the mouth conveniently changes it, the ear adapts to it, and presto we have a מעתק ישראלי.
And all this in the face of radio, TV, strict schools, hordes of fuming teachers and self appointed purists.
People who listen to the Israeli TV know that what is spoken there is the language of the university pundits, not the language of the people.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: tsere hinting to a hireq

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:36 pm
by Isaac Fried
Isaac Fried wrote
I myself comfortably say הֵגִיש with a tsere instead of the "correct" הִגִּישׁ with a xireq, not because of any analogies (most people would not know, even intuitively, what this analogy is all about), but because I find it easier, and because I have never encountered a misunderstanding about this pronunciation. It is a common practice now.

Having attentively listened to myself and to other educated Hebrew speaking people I realize now that it is not הֵגִיש that I hear but אִגִיש with the ה replaced by an א, a common practice these days, and with the first xireq under the א more like a snapped "ei".

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: tsere hinting to a hireq

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:31 pm
by Isaac Fried
Today I was listening to a very very experienced public reader reading aloud from an unpunctuated scroll the end of Deut., when he suddenly stopped to ask if in Deut. 31:20 it is וְהֵפַר or וְהֵפֵר. Since we were all looking at the voweled text:
וְהֵפֵר אֶת בְּרִיתִי
we called out, all, loud, and in unison: וְהֵפֵר, and so he continued.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: tsere hinting to a hireq

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:10 am
by ducky
but there are no cases of והפר with Patah'
so it's a wondering for his askings

anyway, I have a feeling that once everybody shouted וְהֵפֵר, you shouted: "it doesn't matter!"

Re: tsere hinting to a hireq

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:33 am
by Isaac Fried
ducky writes
anyway, I have a feeling that once everybody shouted וְהֵפֵר, you shouted: "it doesn't matter!"
Yes! You are a mind reader. I truly wanted to shout exactly that, but decided right there and then not to break the communal harmony.
But try to imagine reading the HB at a time of no niqud and no printed books.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

Re: tsere hinting to a hireq

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:11 pm
by Isaac Fried
Today, while our very very experienced public reader בעל קוֹרא was flawlessly sailing through Deut. 32, I was gleefully waiting for him to trip-over in verse 28 and read it as כִּי גוֹי אבד עֵצוֹת הֵמָּה with אבד as ovEd, but he defied me in correctly (relative to the printed text in front of us) reading אבד as ovAd אֹבַד.

Isaac Fried, Boston University