Gen 3:16 ESV valid?

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SteveMiller
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Gen 3:16 ESV valid?

Post by SteveMiller »

‎ WTT Genesis 3:16
אֶֽל־הָאִשָּׁ֣ה אָמַ֗ר הַרְבָּ֤ה אַרְבֶּה֙ עִצְּבוֹנֵ֣ךְ וְהֵֽרֹנֵ֔ךְ בְּעֶ֖צֶב תֵּֽלְדִ֣י בָנִ֑ים וְאֶל־אִישֵׁךְ֙ תְּשׁ֣וּקָתֵ֔ךְ וְה֖וּא יִמְשָׁל־בָּֽךְ׃

ESV Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you."

NET Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your labor pains; with pain you will give birth to children. You will want to control your husband, but he will dominate you.

DBY Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, I will greatly increase thy travail and thy pregnancy; with pain thou shalt bear children; and to thy husband shall be thy desire, and he shall rule over thee.

My question is regarding the 2nd to last phrase of the verse:
"and to your husband shall be thy desire" - Dby

Does ESV have a valid case to insert the word "contrary" into the phrase?
Or NET "you will want to control your husband"

thanks
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
Detroit
http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
S_Walch
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Re: Gen 3:16 ESV valid?

Post by S_Walch »

This seems to be an interpretation based on the translation of the LXX:

καὶ τῇ γυναικὶ εἶπεν Πληθύνων πληθυνῶ τὰς λύπας σου καὶ τὸν στεναγμόν σου· ἐν λύπαις τέξῃ τέκνα, καὶ πρὸς τὸν ἄνδρα σου ἡ ἀποστροφή σου, καὶ αὐτός σου κυριεύσει.

"and to your husband [shall be] your apostrophe/aversion"

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon

The LXX also uses the same noun in Genesis 4:7, where the ESV translates similarly:

And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.”

The proposal here is the Hebrew text is corrupt, and should be תשׁובך

As per BDB;

[LXX] ἀποστροφή Gn, ἐπιστροφή Ct, whence Nes 6 proposes תְּשׁוּבָתֵךְ Gn 3:16, which Ball reads in all; but how [to] explain the unusual and striking word in MT?.
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Re: Gen 3:16 ESV valid?

Post by SteveMiller »

(I thought I replied yesterday, but it didn't go through.)
Thanks very much, as always, Ste.
What does תְּשׁוּבָתֵךְ mean? Is it based on שׁוב, "return"?
SMP agrees with MT on both 3:16 & 4:7. We don't have DSS for 3:16, but we do for 4:7, and it agrees with MT.
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
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http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
kwrandolph
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Re: Gen 3:16 ESV valid?

Post by kwrandolph »

The word תשוקת is found in a third verse, Song of Songs 7:11 (verse 10 in LXX). There it clearly doesn’t have the meaning of “contrary” or “wanting to control”. Yet it has the same translation in the LXX of ἀποστροφή.

I looked up the Greek word ἀποστροφή found at http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi ... :10:95.LSJ where it seems the underlying idea is that of turning away from others to go towards one.

The Hebrew word, “‎תשוקת attraction, fondness, hankering after Gn 3:16, 4:7, So 7:11 (10)” from its form and idea seems to come from the root, “‎שוק to go out, often for the purpose to acquire stuff, through foraging, purchase or looting, being out to get something that one wants, used of God being out and about guarding Is 27:3, of people being out like a swarm of locusts Is 33:4, of bears as they foraged for food when they can be quite dangerous Pr 28:15”

In short, it looks as if the ESV is wrong for this verse. The NET also looks wrong.
S_Walch
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Re: Gen 3:16 ESV valid?

Post by S_Walch »

The LXX in Song of Songs 7:11(10) actually uses a slightly different word, ἐπιστροφὴ.

καὶ ἐπʼ ἐμὲ ἡ ἐπιστροφὴ αὐτοῦ.

For some reason I can't get perseus to work properly atm, so here's the LSJ entry:

ἐπιστροφή, ἡ, turning about, τῆς τοῦ ἀτράκτου δίνης Pl.R.620e; twisting, Thphr.HP3.13.3; of strands, Ph.Bel.58.15; τῶν σχοινίων Plu.Alex.25 (pl.); ἡ εἴσω ἐ. τῶν δακτύλων Philostr.Im.1.23.
2. bending of a bow, Str.2.5.22.
3. curve, winding of a bay, ib.33; of a river, Ptol.Alm.8.1.
II. intr., turning or whecling about, δαΐων ἀνδρῶν ἐπιστροφαί, i.e. hostile men turning to bay, S.OC1045 (lyr.); tossing, of a restless patient, Hp.Epid.7.83 (pl.); μυρίων ἐπιστροφαὶ κακῶν renewed assaults of ills unnumbered,S.OC537 (lyr.), cf. Arr.An.7.17.5; esp. in military evolutions, Plb.10.23.3, Plu.Phil.7; wheeling through a right angle, Ascl.Tact.10.4, etc. (but, as a general term, αἱ ἐ. τῶν ἵππων ib.7.2, cf. Arr.Tact.16.7); of ships, putting about, tacking, Th.2.90, 90; ἐξ ἐπιστροφῆς by a sudden wheel, Plb.1.76.5, Plu.Tim.27; but ἐξ ἐπιστροφῆς παθεῖν to have a relapse, Hp.Coac.251.
2. turn of affairs, reaction, counter-revolution, μή τις ἐ. γένηται Th.3.71; result, end, Plb.21.32.15 (dub.1.).
3. attention paid to a person or thing (ἐπιστρέφω ii.3), ξενοτίμους δωμάτων ἐ. respect for guests, A.Eu.548; πρὸ τοῦ θανόντος τήνδʼ ἔθεσθʼ ἐ. S.OT134; ὥν ἐ. τις ἦν to whom any regard was due, E.IT671; so ἐπιστροφῆς ἄξιον X.HG5.2.9; παραμυθέεσθαι μετʼ ἐπιστροφῆς καὶ ὑποδέξιος Hp.Decent.16; ἐ. ποιεῖσθαι Philipp.ap.D.12.1, cf. 19.306, etc.; ἐ. ἔχειν τινός Men.836; περί τινος Chrysipp.Stoic.3.187, etc.; ἐπιστροφῆς τυγχάνειν Plb.4.4.4, etc.
b. Philos., turning towards, πρὸς τὰ τῇδε Plot.4.3.4; ψυχὴ καταδεῖται πρὸς τὸ σῶμα τῇ ἐ. τῇ πρὸς τὰ πάθη τὰ ἀπʼ αὐτοῦ Porph.Sent.7.
4. moving up and down in a place, mostly in pl., πατρῴων δεμάτων ἐπιστροφαί the range of them, A.Th.648; οἷσιν οὐκ ἐπιστροφαί men who have no business here, E.Hel.440; βούνομοι ἐ. haunts of the grazing herds, A.Fr.249; so Κίλιξ δὲ χώρα καὶ Σύρων̀ ἐπιστροφαί (cj. for Σηρῶν ἐνστροφαί) ib.271.
5. intentness, vehemence, ἐπιστροφὴν εἶχεν ὁ λόγος καὶ ἔρρωτο Philostr.VS1.21.5; θρασυτέρᾳ τῇ ἐ. χρήσασθαι ib.2.5.2.
b. gravity of deportment, ἡ ἐ. τοῦ εἴδους Id.Im.2.16.
6. correction, reproof, Plu.2.55b.
7. conversion, Act.Ap.15.3; ἡ πρὸς θεὸν ἐ. Hierocl.in CA24p.473 M.
8. in Philos., return to the source of Being, Plot.1.2.4; ἡ ἐ. πρὸς αὑτόν Id.5.3.6, cf. Procl.Inst.31; [ἡ ἐ.] τοῦ προελθότος ἐπάνοδος εἰς τὸ γεννῆσαν Dam.Pr.75; ἡ ἐ. τῆς ἐκστάσεώς ἐστιν ἐπανόρθωσις ib.61.
9. in Logic, conversion of a propositon, ἡ σὺν ἀντιθέσει ἐ. the contrapositon, Suppl.ad Procl.in Prm.p.1004 S.

The use in LXX Song of Songs 7:11(10) corresponds to II 3, attention paid to a person or thing.
Steve Miller wrote:What does תְּשׁוּבָתֵךְ mean? Is it based on שׁוב, "return"?
Yes, and to mean something along the lines of "aversion."

The ESV is using the full phrase to mean "your desire shall be contrary to your husband", taking an interpretive stance on the use of the preposition אֶל

וְאֶל־אִישֵׁךְ֙ תְּשׁ֣וּקָתֵ֔ךְ
= ESV: Your desire shall be contrary to your husband

Either the LXX had a different underlying Hebrew for their rendering, or it was interpretive based on the context :)
Ste Walch
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Re: Gen 3:16 ESV valid?

Post by SteveMiller »

Thanks Ste and Karl!
Sincerely yours,
Steve Miller
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http://www.voiceInWilderness.info
Honesty is the best policy. - George Washington (1732-99)
kwrandolph
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Re: Gen 3:16 ESV valid?

Post by kwrandolph »

Ste: you are quite right. My dyslexia got me again. “The LXX in Song of Songs 7:11(10) actually uses a slightly different word, ἐπιστροφὴ.”

The definition for αποστροφη is below.

ἀπο-στροφή, ἡ,
A turning back, X.Eq.9.6; ἀ. νώτων Max. Tyr.9.8; ἀ. λαμβάνειν make a bend, of a stream, Plu.Luc.27, cf. Luc.Hipp.2.
2 twisting, ὄρχεων ἀποστροφαί Trag.(Satyr.) Oxy. 1083.10.
II turning away from, escape, refuge, c. gen., τύχης, κακῶν, A.Pr.769, E.Fr.444; ζημίας Id.Med.1223.
2 resort, recourse, Hdt.8.109, Th.4.76; ἥκει βίου τελευτὴ κοὐκέτ' ἔστ' ἀ. S.OC 1473, cf. E.Med.603; οὐκ ἔχων ἀ. D.4.8, cf. Hyp.Dem.Fr.5; in pl., Antip.Stoic.3.255: c. gen. objecti, οὔ σφί ἐστι ὕδατος οὐδεμία ἄλλη ἀ. no other means for getting water, Hdt.2.13; so σωτηρίας ἀ. Th.8.75; βίου Luc.DMeretr.6.1; ἀ. τοῦ δήμου ποιεῖσθαι secure a refuge with . ., Philostr.VS2.1.4.
III Rhet., apostrophe, when one turns away from all others to one, and addresses him specially, Phld.Lib.p.11O., Quint.Inst.9.2.38, Longin.16.2, Hermog.Inv.4.4, Id.1.10(pl.), Phoeb. Fig.1.1, Alex.Fig.1.20.
IV aversion, Plot.1.1.1; opp. ἐπιθυμία, Simp. in de An.15.36; γευμάτων Aret.SD2.6; σιτίων Gal.11.261; ὀσμῆς Gp.12.39.8.
V diversion, amusement, Plu.2.133b(pl.).
VI elision, A.D.Pron.46.1(ubi leg. ε ¯ ).
VII = προδοσία, Hsch.

The verse as quoted in the LXX:
16 και τη γυναικι ειπεν πληθυνων πληθυνω τας λυπας σου και τον στεναγμον σου εν λυπαις τεξη τεκνα και προς τον ανδρα σου η αποστροφη σου και αυτος σου κυριευσει

The use of the word προς here backs up the understanding under III in the definition, though under II also has the idea of going away from something unwanted towards something wanted. The προς meaning parallels the standard use of אל where it’s used in the sense of “towards”.

I just don’t see how the ESV can be correct here. The translator must have had a bad marriage.

Karl W. Randolph.
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