Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Classical Hebrew morphology and syntax, aspect, linguistics, discourse analysis, and related topics
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Jason Hare
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Jason Hare »

Isaac Fried wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:52 pm Charles writes
For starters, the Tiberian Masoretes pronounced every qamets vowel sign the same—as [ɔ] an open-mid back rounded vowel.
Maybe yes, maybe no. I am very careful about claims on the ancient pronunciation of Hebrew. The fact is that spoken Hebrew pronounces the patah and the qametz, and all the hatephim the same way, and that the language works flawlessly this way.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Even in modern Hebrew, we pronounce אֳנִיָּה oniyah. We pronounce חָדְשַׁ֫יִם ḥodsháyim. If you don't pronounce kamats katan as o, then you're not pronouncing it correctly. We write חָדְשַׁ֫יִם without vowels (in the full spelling) as חודשיים, which shows that the kamats katan is pronounced o. The form בְּשָׁכְבְּךָ is spelled בשוכבך in full spelling.

From Mechon Mamre (link)​:

Image
Jason Hare
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Isaac Fried
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Isaac Fried »

Refael writes
In modern hebrew you'll hear many that pronounce אני יכתוב under אני אכתוב and the language works flawlessly this way either, so אכתוב is misspelling or what?
I see nothing inherently wrong with the colloquial אני יכתוב, except that purists and teachers consider it not only incorrect (bad grade!), but also low class.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Jason Hare
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Jason Hare »

Isaac Fried wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:32 pm Refael writes
In modern hebrew you'll hear many that pronounce אני יכתוב under אני אכתוב and the language works flawlessly this way either, so אכתוב is misspelling or what?
I see nothing inherently wrong with the colloquial אני יכתוב, except that purists and teachers consider it not only incorrect (bad grade!), but also low class.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Oh, so I guess your system allows "he" to mean "I" also?
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
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Isaac Fried
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Isaac Fried »

Jason asks
Oh, so I guess your system allows "he" to mean "I" also?
אנִי, 'I', ends with an אִי (for the many, אנוּ, 'we', ends with an אוּ) and hence the commonly heard אנִי יִכתוב (or אני יָביא) which is reasonable and at the same time easier on the lips and on the ear.
This is how spoken language spontaneously develops and mutates.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Isaac Fried
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Isaac Fried »

Another interesting example to the tenacious power of the voice of the people is the word צָהֳרַיִם, 'midday', which the purists, the teachers, and the Hebrew Academy of Jerusalem, all insist must be pronounced, by penalty of ostracizing, tsohoraim. Still עמך ישראל, including me, הקטן באלפי מנשה, keep pronouncing it with utter equanimity tsaharaim.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Jason Hare
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Jason Hare »

I agree that people normally pronounce צָהֳרַיִם as tsaharayim. Do you know of anyone who pronounces חָפְשִׁי as ḥafshi or קָדְשׁוֹ as qadsho? I submit that you will not find this anywhere as a regular phenomenon in spoken Hebrew. We certainly have a qamats qatan in our language.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

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Refael Shalev
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Refael Shalev »

Isaac, I really don't understand your point.
Refael Shalev
Isaac Fried
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Isaac Fried »

Jason writes
Do you know of anyone who pronounces חָפְשִׁי as ḥafshi or קָדְשׁוֹ as qadsho?
It is true that the words חוֹדֶש, קוֹדֶש, חוֹפֶש have naturally spawned the folk words חוֹדשים, קוֹדשוֹ, חוֹפשי

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
ducky
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by ducky »

There is no form as "tsaharaim".

You may say: tsahoraim (as the Saphardi)
or
tsohoraim (as modern (if we ignore all of the other accents))

The leter H is with Hataph-Qamats and must be with an o sound.

****
The Tiberian Qamats was not in use except by the Tiberian people and the "wise" of Egypt (according to Ibn-Ezra).

The people had another dialect that they followed, and that is not the Tiberian, even though it was considered by all as the most dignified one.

the Tiberian Qamats derived from two vowels.
1. a
2. u/o

basically, when the Qamats was derived from an "a" sound, it was pronounced as "a"
like the first Qamats in the verb חָכְמָה.

When the Qamats was derived from an u/o sound, it was pronounced as "o"
like the first Qamats in the noun חָכְמָה.

The Tiberian system of the vowels is used only for the grammar.

This is the basic thing.
Modern Hebrew pronounces each Qamats according to its basic vowel

and
so is the Sephardi - only that in some cases, when the vowel is open (most of the times it is a closed syllable that was opened) then this "o"-Qamats was "expanded" to "a".

***
so as for צהרים (its singular: צהר)
it is based on the form "tsuhr"
the original vowel is "u" - therefore, Modern Hebrew insists on the "o" sound and pronounces it "tsohoraim".

the form of "tsuhr+aim"...
The H should be had a Quiescent Sheva (like the G in רגלים=ragl+aim)
and if it was stayed like that, then the Sephardi would also pronounce the qamats as "o".
But since the Quiescent Sheva is not "stable" with the H (sometimes) - it was opened and became Hataph (as a mobiel sheva) - and by that, made the syllable open.
And because of that, the Sephardi pronounce the Qamats as "a".
David Hunter
Isaac Fried
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Isaac Fried »

Refael writes
Isaac, I really don't understand your point.
Be more specific please about the "point".

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
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