Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Classical Hebrew morphology and syntax, aspect, linguistics, discourse analysis, and related topics
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Isaac Fried
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Isaac Fried »

Ducky writes
There is no form as "tsaharaim".
You may say: tsahoraim (as the Saphardi)
or
tsohoraim (as modern (if we ignore all of the other accents))
The leter H is with Hataph-Qamats and must be with an o sound.
I hear tsaharaim every day left and right. I have never heard a common Hebrew speaker utter tsahoraim.
The Tiberian Qamats was not in use except by the Tiberian people and the "wise" of Egypt.
We will leave the "wise" of Egypt for now.
so as for צהרים (its singular: צהר)
it is based on the form "tsuhr"
the original vowel is "u" - therefore, Modern Hebrew insists on the "o" sound and pronounces it "tsohoraim".
the form of "tsuhr+aim"...
What is this "tsuhr"?

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Jason Hare
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Jason Hare »

Isaac Fried wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:56 pm Jason writes
Do you know of anyone who pronounces חָפְשִׁי as ḥafshi or קָדְשׁוֹ as qadsho?
It is true that the words חוֹדֶש, קוֹדֶש, חוֹפֶש have naturally spawned the folk words חוֹדשים, קוֹדשוֹ, חוֹפשי

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Psalms 105:3
הִתְהַלְלוּ בְּשֵׁם קָדְשׁוֹ יִשְׂמַח לֵב מְבַקְשֵׁי יהוה

Deuteronomy 15:13
וְכִי־תְשַׁלְּחֶנּוּ חָפְשִׁי מֵעִמָּךְ לֹא תְשַׁלְּחֶנּוּ רֵיקָם

1 Chronicles 27:1
וּבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל לְמִסְפָּרָם רָאשֵׁי הָאָבוֹת וְשָׂרֵי הָאֲלָפִים וְהַמֵּאוֹת וְשֹׁטְרֵיהֶם הַמְשָׁרְתִים אֶת־הַמֶּלֶךְ לְכֹל דְּבַר הַמַּחְלְקוֹת הַבָּאָה וְהַיֹּצֵאת חֹדֶשׁ בְּחֹדֶשׁ לְכֹל חָדְשֵׁי הַשָּׁנָה הַמַּחֲלֹקֶת הָאַחַת עֶשְׂרִים וְאַרְבָּעָה אָלֶף.

Yes, folk words. Indeed.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
Jason Hare
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Jason Hare »

Isaac Fried wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:34 pmI hear tsaharaim every day left and right. I have never heard a common Hebrew speaker utter tsahoraim.
I have indeed heard people say tsahorayim. Then again, the "proper" pronunciation is tsohorayim (with both the qamats and the ḥataf qamats pronounced as o).
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
ducky
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by ducky »

"tsaharaim" is just a mistake.

Isaac,
the "tsuhr" is the basic form.

let's take the word "ear" which is "ozen"
this "ozen" is an evolved form from "uzn/ozn"

the word "ears" is "oznaim" - which is based on the "ozn+aim"
the word "ears" uses an older form (uzn-->ozn)

it is in a lot of simiral forms
the word for "boy" is "yeled"
and if we would like to make if a feminine form, we won't say: yeled+a=yeleda.
But we say: yalda
Because it is actually "yald+a"

so the form of צהרים is the same form as אזנים
and just like "oznaim" is based on "ozn" (which evolved from "uzn")
the "tsohoraim" is based on "tsohr" (which evolved from "tsuhr")
David Hunter
Isaac Fried
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Isaac Fried »

Jason writes
Yes, folk words. Indeed.
Indeed, קָדְשׁוֹ KADSHO is not קוֹדשוֹ QODSHO, ect.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Isaac Fried
Posts: 1661
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Isaac Fried »

Ducky says
the "tsuhr" is the basic form.
It still escapes me what "tsuhr" is and what is "the basic form".
let's take the word "ear" which is "ozen" this "ozen" is an evolved form "uzn/ozn"
It is utterly not clear to me how "ozen evolved uzn/ozn".

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Jason Hare
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Jason Hare »

Isaac Fried wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:08 pm Jason writes
Yes, folk words. Indeed.
Indeed, קָדְשׁוֹ KADSHO is not קוֹדשוֹ QODSHO, ect.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
If you think so, then you are pronouncing Hebrew incorrectly. It is not kadsho. It is kodsho. Every speaker of Hebrew will agree.
Jason Hare
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.thehebrewcafe.com
Nihil est peius iis, qui paulum aliquid ultra primas litteras
progressi falsam sibi scientiæ persusionem induerunt.

— Quintilian
ducky
Posts: 480
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Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by ducky »

Hi Isaac,

Hebrew has common noun-forms of three letter roots with two vowels, with the accent of the first one.

I'll use root q-t-l for the examples:

1. qEtel (like yeled=ילד)
2. qAtal (like nah'al=נחל)
3. qOtel (like kotel=כתל)
4. qOtal (like mohar=מהר)

These forms were evolved in Hebrew from a form of one vowel:
qatl / qitl / qutl

since these forms ended with a combination of consonants, Hebrew "broke" them with a vowel.
and so, the word ילד=yald turned to yAled and later to yEled.

And that is why, by the way, when you see the word כסף or שמש or others in the pausal forms, they are voweled as "shAmesh" and "kAsef" (instead of the "regular" forms of "shEmesh" and "kEsef".

But that combination of consonants happened only when the word stood alone.
But when the word had a suffix, then there was no problem, and so the word stayed as it is.

and so , like in my previous example, the word ילד as "yald" is found in the word ילדה=yalda
Because now, there is no combination - and it is "yal+da"

also word like רגל=regel
we can see its previous form "ragl" inside the plural "raglaim"

So these are the original forms of the word (and of course, we can see that forms in other semitic languages)

****
Also, up until now, we said only about a three letter noun.
But this form is also found in longer words, like:
צלחת - you can see the "lAhat" at the end.
מלכדת - you can see the "kodet" at the end.

And now, add a suffix to these words:
צלחתו - now the letter ח lost its vowel - tsalah'to (based on the form lah't (and not "lah'at")
מלכדתו - malkodto - based on the form "kodt" (and not "kodet")

*******************
And you can see it also in the MT vowels
Gen. 16:11
הנך הרה וילדת בן
you would expect the word וילדת to be "veyoledet"
but it is voweled as "veyoladt"
because the "ledet" is based on "ladt".

*****
So now, when you see a word like צהר=tsohar
you know it is based on "tsuhr" - or let's say, for this conversatiion: from "tsohr" - without the second vowel.

And then, just like the word רגלים=raglaim is from רגל
and אזנים-oznaim is from אזן
So is tsohraim is from צהר

but this form of tsohraim has an H in the middle which should be with a quiescent Sheva (just like the letter Z in "oznaim") - ut since this H letter sometimes is not stable with the quiescent Sheva, it naturally got mobilized and the quiescent Sheve turned to a Hataph Qamats (to fit the previous Qamats in the previous letter).

so the tsohraim-->tsohoraim.

**
About the Sephardi way,
since the H became mobilized, and by that the syllable was opened.
they read the qamats in the "ts" as "a" as wide to fit the open syllable (tsahoraim).
David Hunter
Isaac Fried
Posts: 1661
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Isaac Fried »

Ducky says
So now, when you see a word like צהר=tsohar
you know it is based on "tsuhr" - or let's say, for this conversatiion: from "tsohr" - without the second vowel.

And then, just like the word רגלים=raglaim is from רגל
and אזנים-oznaim is from אזן
So is tsohraim is from צהר

but this form of tsohraim has an H in the middle which should be with a quiescent Sheva (just like the letter Z in "oznaim") - ut since this H letter sometimes is not stable with the quiescent Sheva, it naturally got mobilized and the quiescent Sheve turned to a Hataph Qamats (to fit the previous Qamats in the previous letter).

so the tsohraim-->tsohoraim.
I find it difficult to relate to all this as I find the reasoning employed ("the quiescent Sheve turned to a Hataph Qamats to fit the previous Qamats in the previous letter") unfamiliar.
However, if language was fully logical, and if I had control over it, I would call this time of day זוֹהריים ZOHARAYIM, the time of the double (or ample) זוֹהַר, 'brightness, glow, luminosity'.
As for צָהֳרָיִם I agree that the hateph-qametz under the H is a compromise marking for a schwa tradition and another "A" tradition. So, if one is capable of distinctly reading צָהְרָיִם TSAHRAYIM, he should do it, if only for the sake of a perfectly enunciated Hebrew.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
www.hebrewetymology.com
Refael Shalev
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:07 pm

Re: Qamets Qatan Spreadsheet

Post by Refael Shalev »

Isaac,
There is no need to call it "zohoraim" because there is relation between זהר, צהר,סהר as glow/light (יצהר).
Refael Shalev
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