Genesis 6:1 "born"

[Isaac Fried]

Copt is Gopt and hence Egypt (Ecypt.)

Isaac Fried, Boston University

[talmid56]

talmid56 wrote:
kwrandolph wrote:
How do you have conversations in a language that hasn’t been spoken for 2500 years and whose pronunciations have long been forgotten. You certainly don’t have conversations in that language.

The same way you can in Latin and in Ancient Greek.…

Latin and ancient Greek have vowels written out. So we have at least some idea how to pronounce those languages, in spite of some disagreements. An example of some disagreement is πνευμα—I think the ευ is a true diphthong with a pronunciation of “ëū” while the pronunciation I was taught was “yū” but a German would pronounce as “oi”. Biblical Hebrew lacks written vowels. So which vowels do you suggest for Biblical Hebrew so you can have a conversation?

The Hebrew matres lectiones began to be used even before the Masoretes, and give some help. Also, there is some help in knowing Biblcal Hebrew pronunciation from transcriptions of Hebrew proper names in the Septuagint and the Vulgate. So, there is at least some evidence apart from the Tiberian. I agree with you that the Tiberian system is not perfect and is clearly wrong on some things. But given that, that does not mean it cannot be used as a starting point.

As for the Greek and Latin scripts having vowels, even with those people do not always agree on pronunciation. But those disagreements and uncertainties need not be a barrier to using them conversationally. Nor should such be a barrier to using BH conversationally if one desires. Many Latinists would probably consider me an odd duck because I prefer the traditional Spanish pronunciation for Latin. While I like the Ecclesiastical, and understand it, I am not as comfortable using it. It's because I'm already fluent in Spanish and know little Italian. I originally learned Latin with the restored classical accent. After hearing it used, I saw that most people using it do not sound natural. They are hesitant, not fluid, and too often influenced by their native language, which interferes.On the other hand, John Simon in his recordings of the Vulgate NT using the Spanish accent sounds great. So, I adopted it, and still use it when speaking Latin. And since Spanish developed out of Vulgar Latin, that accent likely goes back a long way in history.

I have no problem using Modern Hebrew pronunciation, which I understand is modified some from Tiberian. If I were to criticize a Hebrew pronunciation, it would be one modified toward English or another European language. I used Mansoor's text (volume 1) for my initial BH coursework. Later I got a tape for it that pronounces some selections from Genesis. The speaker used an accent that was heavily influenced by American English.While you could understand it, such an accent was distracting to me.

In my view, any ancient spoken Hebrew/Greek/Latin (Aramaic, Syriac, etc., etc.) is better than none, regardless of accent. If teaching BH, you can always caution students that we do not know for certain how BH was pronounced. But some system is better than no system, in my view.

[Kenneth Greifer]

Karl,
Can you give one or two examples of verses that you translate in a very different way than the usual common translations, so I can see how big a difference there is?

[talmid56]

In my view, any ancient spoken Hebrew/Greek/Latin (Aramaic, Syriac, etc., etc.) is better than none, regardless of accent.

Although many of us would agree that Erasmian Greek is the spawn of Satan, along with interlinears.

[Jason Hare]

Although many of us would agree that Erasmian Greek is the spawn of Satan, along with interlinears.

Every time that Jonathan Beck hears "Greek," his reaction is "gross."

I participated in a Greek reading group yesterday. We read Galatians chapter 1. It was very enjoyable.

[talmid56]

I participated in a Greek reading group yesterday. We read Galatians chapter 1. It was very enjoyable.

הִנֵּ֣ה מַה־טּ֭וֹב וּמַה־נָּעִ֑ים
ἰδοὺ δὴ τί καλὸν ἢ τί τερπνὸν! (Cf. Psa. 133:1)

[Isaac Fried]

To return to the original question. Kenneth wrote

Genesis 6:1 בראשית
6:1 וַֽיְהִי֙ כִּֽי־הֵחֵ֣ל הָֽאָדָ֔ם לָרֹ֖ב עַל־פְּנֵ֣י הָֽאֲדָמָ֑ה וּבָנ֖וֹת יֻלְּד֥וּ לָהֶֽם׃

JPS Tanakh 1917
Genesis 6:1
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

Some dictionaries say there was a pual form of the verb ילד, but I think that might not be true. Is there a pual form or just a niphal for the passive form or a passive form of the kal form? What is the form in Genesis 6:1?

Then again

I thought the niphal form was the passive form of the kal form. I understand there is a passive participle, but I am confused about what is the kal passive.

The confusion is not yours only; there is no such thing as "kal (qal) passive" in Hebrew. What it is "Is there a pual form or just a niphal for the passive form or a passive form of the kal form?", I will to sort out in a following post.

Isaac Fried Boston University

[Jason Hare]

The confusion is not yours only; there is no such thing as "kal (qal) passive" in Hebrew. What it is "Is there a pual form or just a niphal for the passive form or a passive form of the kal form?", I will to sort out in a following post.

Isaac Fried Boston University

Let the reader be aware that Isaac Fried also thinks that there is no such thing as a doubling dagesh, nor does he even recognize that "patterns" exist between Hebrew words.

[Isaac Fried]

Jason writes

Let the reader be aware that Isaac Fried also thinks that there is no such thing as a doubling dagesh, nor does he even recognize that "patterns" exist between Hebrew words.

Jason,
You are right in claiming that I deny a "doubling dagesh" in Hebrew, but it is not clear to me what you mean by: "patterns" that exist between Hebrew words, the existence of which I fail to recognize.
Please bring us an actual example to such a pattern and my denial of it. I am really curious to see such an example.

Isaac Fried Boston University

[Kenneth Greifer]

Jason,

I think you should wait until Isaac gives his opinion before you criticize him or say he has unusual opinions about Biblical Hebrew. You don't know what he is going to say yet, so you should give him a chance.