how do we know that reish had, two pronunciations BGDKPRT?

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ralph
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how do we know that reish had, two pronunciations BGDKPRT?

Post by ralph »

We often hear about BGDKPT letters, but I have heard that Reish is one of them.. BGDKPRT.

There are cases where reish occurs with a dagesh, so that would affect its pronunciation.. I guess if any of them are a dagesh kal then that might prove that reish is part of those letters making it BGDKPRT? What exactly are the lines of evidence that reish has two pronunciations depending on whether it has no dagesh in it(the norm), or has a dagesh in it.

Reish occurs with dagesh 19 times, according to my search, with powergrep, on the xml files of the WLC.

609 Genesis.xml,ch2 v10, <w>וְ/נָהָרּ֙<x>t</x></w>
198040 Samuel_1.xml,ch1 v6, <w>הַרְּעִמָ֑/הּ</w>
201949 Samuel_1.xml,ch10 v24, <w>הַ/רְּאִיתֶם֙</w>
205397 Samuel_1.xml,ch17 v25, <w>הַ/רְּאִיתֶם֙</w>
241600 Kings_2.xml,ch6 v32, <w>הַ/רְּאִיתֶם֙</w>
273346 Chronicles_2.xml,ch26 v10, <w>רַּב֙</w>
281669 Ezra.xml,ch9 v6, <w>רֹּ֔אשׁ</w>
300253 Job.xml,ch39 v9, <w>רֵּ֣ים<x>3</x></w>
308718 Psalms.xml,ch52 v5, <w>רָּ֣ע</w>
324180 Proverbs.xml,ch3 v8, <w>לְ/שָׁרֶּ֑/ךָ</w>
326260 Proverbs.xml,ch11 v21, <w>רָּ֑ע</w>
326873 Proverbs.xml,ch14 v10, <w>מָרַּ֣ת</w>
327084 Proverbs.xml,ch15 v1, <w>רַּ֭ךְ</w>
335691 Song_of_Songs.xml,ch5 v2, <w>שֶׁ/רֹּאשִׁ/י֙</w>
372180 Jeremiah.xml,ch39 v12, <w>רָּ֑ע</w>
378721 Lamentations.xml,ch1 v1, <w>רַּבָּ֣תִי<x>Q</x><x>t</x></w>
385449 Ezekiel.xml,ch16 v4, <w>כָרַּ֣ת</w>
385450 Ezekiel.xml,ch16 v4, <w>שָׁרֵּ֔/ךְ</w>
417205 Habakkuk.xml,ch3 v13, <w>רֹּאשׁ֙</w>

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Jason Hare
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Re: how do we know that reish had, two pronunciations BGDKPRT?

Post by Jason Hare »

I wonder what all those codes (<w> and <x>) are supposed to stand for.

According to the book סֵ֫פֶר יְצִירָה, resh was one of the "doubles" (included with the begedkefet letters). I don't know if that is relevant, but it's always sat there in the back of my mind.
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Re: how do we know that reish had, two pronunciations BGDKPRT?

Post by ducky »

I think it is very relevant because it clearly says that there was an accent like that.
And I think that other books also refer to that.
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Re: how do we know that reish had, two pronunciations BGDKPRT?

Post by talmid56 »

So would that be a resh with dagesh chazak (forte)? I have never heard of a resh with dagesh lene.
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Re: how do we know that reish had, two pronunciations BGDKPRT?

Post by Jason Hare »

talmid56 wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:06 am So would that be a resh with dagesh chazak (forte)? I have never heard of a resh with dagesh lene.
The doubled sound of the resh was before the dagesh mark was introduced to represent the distinction of sounds, so it's probably not useful to think of it in terms of dagesh or no dagesh. Probably the idea of it being doubled, like the distinction between r and rr in Spanish, where we have a basic opposition in words like caro "expensive, dear" and carro "car," like pero "but" and perro "dog." It's possible that the resh was a tap, and the idea of a doubled resh was a trill (like in Spanish).

This is on the assumption that resh was tapped, which I think is a good assumption.
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Re: how do we know that reish had, two pronunciations BGDKPRT?

Post by talmid56 »

That explanation makes sense to me. I understand that some Hebrew speakers today who use the Yemenite pronunciation trill the resh. Not sure how ancient that pronunciation is. I've adopted that myself (the rr trill) when I speak Hebrew.
Dewayne Dulaney
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כִּ֤י שֶׁ֨מֶשׁ׀ וּמָגֵן֮ יְהוָ֪ה אֱלֹ֫הִ֥ים חֵ֣ן וְ֭כָבוֹד יִתֵּ֣ן יְהוָ֑ה לֹ֥א יִמְנַע־ט֝֗וֹב לַֽהֹלְכִ֥ים בְּתָמִֽים׃
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Re: how do we know that reish had, two pronunciations BGDKPRT?

Post by ducky »

I don't know if the word "doubled" fits this issue becase this issue is about R having a Dagesh Lene, and not Dagesh Forte.

The examples that were given in the first post in this thread is mostly about Dagesh Forte.

The R in the ספר יצירה is talks about other places of where the R get this dagesh lene.

according to what I read, both Babylonian people and the people in Israel had this two R's.
But the cases were different.

The Babylonian had it according to the BGDKPT rules (maybe there are also exceptions)
And the Tiberain people, had other rules of where it comes with Dagesh.
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Re: how do we know that reish had, two pronunciations BGDKPRT?

Post by Jason Hare »

Not to belabor the comparison to Spanish, but an initial r in Spanish is also trilled, and it isn't doubled. It could have been a distinction in sound without having the letter doubled. There is certainly a sound distinction between r tap and r trill, which could account for the separation of sounds. I don't know what might account for it otherwise.
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Re: how do we know that reish had, two pronunciations BGDKPRT?

Post by ducky »

I didn't come against your view. I just pointed the fact that we're talking about Dagesh Lene (and not Dagesh Forte).

As for the pronunciation, I saw a few suggestions of what it could be, because the books that talk about it wasn't specific and clear about it.
One of the opinions, and I think an accepted by many is the tapping as you explained.
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Re: how do we know that reish had, two pronunciations BGDKPRT?

Post by Jason Hare »

ducky wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:38 pm I didn't come against your view. I just pointed the fact that we're talking about Dagesh Lene (and not Dagesh Forte).
Of course. I just thought that I might have misrepresented what I was saying by specifically mentioning the doubling of the Spanish consonant. I really was referring to the sound rather than to whether or not it's doubled. No problem.
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